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Piracy

WildArmsV

New Member
Which is why Pirates and hackers are not the same. What you describe is what pirates do: copying without adding anything new. So you should replace "hacked" with "pirated" in your sentence.

Hackers tend to unlock the system, improve it.


If it were music, I would see the hacker as a talented DJ, able to create new music from samples of another musician, while pirates would be the people who simply rip/download mp3s.

I don't see why game developers would think differently. I don't work in the gaming industry, but I can tell you developers in any company make a clear difference between clever hackers and stupid pirates. I don't work for Sony, but I could bet with you that there are a few people over there who are impressed with what hackers have accomplished with the PSP. As a professional programmer I'm always impressed when someone use my work in a twisted way to make the program do way more than it was initially supposed to do.

Someone who codes an ISO loader clearly knows what this will lead to. But it's not because a few guys created ISO Loaders that all hackers support this.

U cant say "Hackers tend to unlock the system, improve it.", 'cause is not they improving it, there are some hackers that just hack to see if they can actually hack... as well that just hack to get more liberty of the system, piracy is just the ppl that copy games, but most of pirates just know to do that, copy stuff, but a hacker or programmer is the person who does the homebrew programs or to code an iso loader, so you could say those are hackers/piraters super hybrid. But well, could say that pirates are not hackers (wich is true) but piraters come from hackers, The hackers are the tree, and the pirates a branch
 

wololo

New Member
Again, it's not because some developers created ISO Loaders that they support the bad usage that is being made out of this.

I recently saw a translated version of a Japanese game, that would never have been possible without UMD Dumpers and ISO Loaders.

there ARE good usages to these tools. Analogy of the knife, you can prepare food with it. You can also kill people. It's up to you to decide what you do. You can't blame the people who provide the tool when there are perfectly "moral" ways to use the tool in the first place.

But if you think so badly that hackers and pirates are the same, I think you shouldn't even be talking on forums related to the "psp scene" :mellow:
 

WildArmsV

New Member
Again, it's not because some developers created ISO Loaders that they support the bad usage that is being made out of this.

I recently saw a translated version of a Japanese game, that would never have been possible without UMD Dumpers and ISO Loaders.

there ARE good usages to these tools. Analogy of the knife, you can prepare food with it. You can also kill people. It's up to you to decide what you do. You can't blame the people who provide the tool when there are perfectly "moral" ways to use the tool in the first place.

But if you think so badly that hackers and pirates are the same, I think you shouldn't even be talking on forums related to the "psp scene" :mellow:

Read again what i said, i never said they are the same :mellow:
and u think they just do that for that =P?

And as for the analogy, there is already an argument that destroys that, the knife isnt a copy of something else, is true ppl use it for anything, but what hackers "hack" is always something made from someone else, being an official stuff or smthing so is already bad, and i already said before, that is like putting a chocolate in front of u and not eating it, to hack something and ppl dont abusing/pirating from it

Oh and as for ""this I recently saw a translated version of a Japanese game, that would never have been possible without UMD Dumpers and ISO Loaders"". That is already hacking/piracy, unless the person bought the rights to get that game and translate it, and then giving it away through the net
 

TRFyuki

MessageBoxA No License!
The hackers are the tree, and the pirates a branch

No, not even that. Let's check out DVDcopying. There are hackers; skilled folks interested in the encryption algorithm used on DVDs and have curiousity to take the system apart to defeat it - just cuz. Then there are pirates, who may or maynot have much tech-knowledge. They just get a setup of 20+ DVD-burners, download DVDfab, and run a major piracy ring making money with no care, curiosity or respect for technology only out to "earn" a buck... nothing more.
I know that this isn't exactly the same as the people who develop the PSP-ISO emulation(since they don't make money), but the hackers who hacked the system to run homebrew are the ones who had the challenge of defeating Sony's protection. That's the hacker-curiosity. Once that work is done, anyone who can write C can develop for it. Any talented C-coder can whip out whatever they need. I've written code for the Sony PSP before; nothing important. I don't call myself a SonyPSP hacker. Just a guy that knows C. The developers behind ISO emulation didn't hack anything. They just developed the code based on the work of hackers before them.

Writing code for the PSP doesn't automatically mean you're a hacker.
 

WildArmsV

New Member
No, not even that. Let's check out DVDcopying. There are hackers; skilled folks interested in the encryption algorithm used on DVDs and have curiousity to take the system apart to defeat it - just cuz. Then there are pirates, who may or maynot have much tech-knowledge. They just get a setup of 20+ DVD-burners, download DVDfab, and run a major piracy ring making money with no care, curiosity or respect for technology only out to "earn" a buck... nothing more.
I know that this isn't exactly the same as the people who develop the PSP-ISO emulation(since they don't make money), but the hackers who hacked the system to run homebrew are the ones who had the challenge of defeating Sony's protection. That's the hacker-curiosity. Once that work is done, anyone who can write C can develop for it. Any talented C-coder can whip out whatever they need. I've written code for the Sony PSP before; nothing important. I don't call myself a SonyPSP hacker. Just a guy that knows C. The developers behind ISO emulation didn't hack anything. They just developed the code based on the work of hackers before them.

Well but i dont think they do it for curiosity, they do it to see if they can and to become famous?, if it was curiosity, and dont want emulation cuz they dont approve "piracy" they woudnt spread over the net, hey i hacked this! and let everyone download the thing to hack it =P
 

TRFyuki

MessageBoxA No License!
Well but i dont think they do it for curiosity, they do it to see if they can and to become famous?, if it was curiosity, and dont want emulation cuz they dont approve "piracy" they woudnt spread over the net, hey i hacked this! and let everyone download the thing to hack it =P

That's true, some hackers do it for fame some do it just for curiosity. But that part "do it" needs to be defined.

For PSP-hackers, do it = defeat a protection system for fame and/or curiosity. With little to nothing to start with, they analyse and poke at a security system until they find a way to break it. Their minds are always looking at things; looking for ways to defeat it.

For PSP-pirates, do it = Develop an ISO loader in C code, while may be a nice challenging project for a developer - being a hacker is not a pre-requisite. And in even simpler terms, if I just download an ISO and run it with the ISOloader someone else made... that makes me a pirate and I didn't even write a single line of code.
 

WildArmsV

New Member
You guys seem to be debating form, not substance. Once again, is intellectual property/copyright law necessary?

Well my friend, as they say, Laws are meant to be broken, actually, if we take a peek to history we are where we are because some ppl broke laws to umm, get independence, and etc.

So you can say that it is in human nature, to do what they are not able to do, another good example, flying, we couldn't fly, but because some ppl really wanted to do is why we have airplanes now.

So yes is necessary, if it wasn't because of that there would be a really huge mess in the industry, but between companies, this way, there is piracy and stuff, but you could say everything in this business is in order
 
Laws aren't made to be broken, people just break them anyway. Copyrigt Laws are definitely necessary otherwise companies wouldn't make enough money to continue. It's like saying that humans don't need human rights!
 

Telpeurion

New Member
Laws aren't made to be broken, people just break them anyway. Copyrigt Laws are definitely necessary otherwise companies wouldn't make enough money to continue. It's like saying that humans don't need human rights!

Uh huh, and what do you have to back that up with? What constitutes "enough" money? "Enough" to prevent cheaper, efficient, and/or more innovative competitors from running one out of business? You may also want to take note that copyright is NOT recognized as common law even by today's governments. As in, it is not a "human right". It is just an arbitrary MONOPOLY granted by politicians in their thrones, which they extend or take away whenever they please. Its purely political, and thus corrupt. People always raise fears about "monopolies" rising in a free market, but as far as I see, the only monopolies are those that are the state, and the state's breastfed recipients. The milk they drink is your money, property, and life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_copyright




---------- Post added at 06:37 AM EST ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 AM EST ----------

It is, but definitely not in its current form, which is obsolete

What is it necessary for? What is the purpose, and not only that - Do the means actually achieve the fulfillment of that goal. The original intent for copyright and patent so far as I know was to spur innovation, but I have plenty examples as to why that is not the case.
 
Uh huh, and what do you have to back that up with? What constitutes "enough" money? "Enough" to prevent cheaper, efficient, and/or more innovative competitors from running one out of business?

No, without copyright laws how many people would buy the actual thing?

And it isn't allowed to deliberately run another company out of business, this was witnessed by Microsoft and the Rockerfellers.
 

Telpeurion

New Member
No, without copyright laws how many people would buy the actual thing?

And it isn't allowed to deliberately run another company out of business, this was witnessed by Microsoft and the Rockerfellers.

The actual thing? Are you talking about products? What makes your product more real than anyone others? If you want to claim your products are the "original" feel free to advertise that, but if the consumers determine your competitor is more worthy of their trade, what then? You think it is legitimate to force others to buy only from you?

You brought up Rockefeller, and I assume you must mean the case of Standard Oil. What is funny is that Standard Oil never was a monopoly. The company got ahead by, pardon the pun, refining the refinery processes for oil. This gave them a temporary lead over their competitors. If you do some research on the subject you will notice that when the Antitrust case was brought against Standard Oil, it did not even have a majority share of the market! Guess who lobbied for the case? Standard Oil's competitors who didn't like that Rockefeller's company was offering cheaper oil for consumers! Oh no! By the time the case was decided, other companies had already COPIED AND MADE ADDITIONS to Standard Oil's processes and were actually outdoing them! :laugh: If anything, copyrights hinder competition? I don't get it, one day people are criticizing monopolies, and another day they are for creating them! But I digress, the only way to have a TRUE monopoly is to have it backed by the threat or use of force... I.E. the government.
 
I have to disagree there. If I make something then it should be mine to use unless I wish to share it in which case people can buy it as long as they respect the fact that I made it.

It's not about having a monopoly on the market, it's about respecting the fact that somebody put in the hard work to make something. You can't just assume that you deserve something that somebody else made.
 

Teverek

New Member
Ok seriously the people on here that are defending themselves for dling over priced software/media are getting trampled and straight up its not fair.

As for Ipaq I love how you call people idiots or w/e and then say HEY I pirate too. But w/e
when piracy was first discussed amongst the industries it was much different then it is today. Piracy used to mean that you were getting your hands on illegal materials and made copies to sell for profit. That's what piracy was and to me that's what piracy still is.

I like how the bootleggers (<-- The real pirates people "piratin" for profit) are looked over and ignored but the people at home dling stuff for themselves and not distributing it are the ones getting hunted like Deer.

I will provide my long time analogy to this conversation I am sure people will attack it but hey here it is : There's a lemonade stand on the street corner its 35 degrees (Celsius for all you imperial system people that think 35 is freezing :) ) the sign on the front of the stand says FREE!!! do you get a drink? OF COURSE YOU DO. Why? because its boiling outside and you need refreshment. Well look at the prices on media now a days here I am looking at $50 for 1 bluray movie 25 for a newish DVD. The Media industries have jacked up their prices so much over the past 5-10 years that it is well over 35 degrees in the media market and every day that sign on the lemonade stand gets more and more tempting to more and more people.

You know where I buy my movies and music? The $5 bins, I refuse to pay full price for a 20 cent dvd when the people who actually made the movie or album make pennies and the producers make millions. If they release blu rays @ 19.99 on release day I would have a cabinet full of movies but they don't so niether do I. Whos fault is it? mine for DLing the movies I can't find at reasonable prices OR the industries for keeping the prices so high the average Joe cant afford a bluray each week. When I used to buy dvds it was every paycheck I went and got a new one never failed to get a new one and now look at the prices now..... Pathetic.

As for video games with all this DLC nowadays they are just asking more people to pirate. Right now I get my games on boxing day ( day after Christmas Canadian biggest shopping day of the year) I pay from 19.99 -39.99 for brand new ps3 titles I refuse to pay full price for anything. If the ps3 was modded and the GOOD exclusives werent 50gbs then I would be pirating them too. I actually have only purchased 1 game full retail it was GTA and it was the biggest rip off I ever did to myself. Paying $60+ for a video game is retarded especially when it has no trade in value after a week or so.

So what about these game resellers? are they pirates? they are selling the companies titles at discounted prices and providing the Developer with absolutely Zero. No different they are just allowed and we are not.

the fact you don't have enough money to buy a movie/album because they are so heavily over priced should be and is the driving force behind why I do what I do. Without piracy could you imagine what their prices would be like? over $100 canadian dollars a bluray and prolly even more than that for a brand new ps3 title.

Piracy keeps these companies Honest which needs to be done because they are some of the most greedy people on the face of the planet. If the entertainment industry was fair then it would be a completely different story right now. But they want to gouge at my pockets Ill gouge at their sales figures and trust me mine will go A LOT deeper.
 
You seem to be forgetting that it's stealing, it doesn't matter how you put it, it's stealing. Somebody else works to make something and you swoop in and take it.

You are also talking about games as if they are necessary for life. What about the people that can't afford them and don't pirate them? They're not doing too badly. I don't download, I don't pirate and I don't hack and I'm doing fine.

You can't claim that piracy is doing a good deed. I'll go and kill someone for the crimes that they might commit if I don't. Is that ok?
 

Teverek

New Member
So I am not supposed to say "stealing" is a good deed then you shouldn't compare a truly victimless crime to something as sinister as murder.

I didn't once say it was good to steal peoples stuff ( its obviously illegal for a reason) I am saying I completely understand why people do it. I also provided the reasons I do it. For people to get all offended because people pirate is just silly.

There are thousands of reasons people go out and Download things over buying them. You don't see those people around calling you stupid and immature for going out and purchasing things do you? No. So if the people on the other side could provide the same respect it would be greatly appreciated.

The fact of the matter is your argument doesn't even make sense. The crimes they didn't commit eh? the entertainment industry has already committed the crime as far as a lot of people are concerned. The prices are sky high in some regions while my friends in the states can buy a bluray/dvd combo for $26..... that's fair? that's not a crime? to me that is absolutely despicable that these people can't charge a unified rate for their product and expect someone that lives across a measly invisible line ( the border if you don't understand) over double the price.

That's like the fifth time someone has compared downloading files to murder is that truly what the world has come to? everything that is even vaguely morally wrong is == to murder? pretty fricking sad when we can't stand up for what we believe in even if it may be something others find wrong. People today seem to think everyone should act exactly how they act 100% of the time. Well news flash that's not the way the world works wake up and deal with it. I don't mean to be offensive but comparing downloading to murder is laughable and actually kind of offensive to myself and I am sure some others.

Everyone loved Robin Hood! Guess what Everyone loves the pirate bay dudes for the same freaking reason time for some people to hop on the band wagon and realize if you live outside America you are paying at least double on almost all media.

Edit*** Ok at least double might be over the top but you get the picture in places like Australia that is the case.
 
First of all I am not saying that I am perfect.

Second, stealing is not a victimless crime. You may see it as not affecting the companies much but it ultimately devalues the market and in turn ends up affecting everybody.

Third, you can't claim that they're being unfair for having high prices. It's their product to do with as they wish. They have no obligation to let you have it at lower prices.

Fourth, don't compare yourself to Robin Hood. He took money from rich people and gave it to people that would otherwise starve. You on the other hand are stealing from the producers because you aren't willing to pay for what you want, not what you need.

Fifth, if something is immoral then it's immoral. You can't say that something isn't bad because it's less immoral than murder. They both shouldn't be done.
 

Teverek

New Member
I don't even see a point in arguing this anymore, you obviously have it in your head that people who download stuff are == to serial killers so I'll just leave it at that. To try and compare a truly savage crime to one where pennies are literally being discussed is absurd . Maybe one day the entertainment industry will be run fairly and have the regulations other industries have but until that day piracy will always and should always be a problem. Like I said before it keeps them honest.

To address your third point however. Yes I can claim they are being unfair because as much as you don't see it customers set prices by determining how much they will pay for some goods its called supply and demand. Which is exactly why people pirate, people have found a way to get the same ridiculously over priced goods for free. If they would drop their prices the majority of piracy would stop. Sure there would still be some and there always will there's always someone who will not pay no matter what the price.However the majority of people now a days would gladly buy things retail if the prices would drop. The answer to piracy starts and stops with them not us. But they won't take a pay cut not even if it means they make more money in the end.

If they dropped bluray prices to 19.99-24.99 then the sales would sky rocket. As for music I don't even waste my time looking at it in stores anymore. Paying $20 for 2 good tracks is a waste of money and I know everyone can agree about that.

And people who "pirate" are immature.... funny stuff.
 
No, piracy can and will be stopped in a way that isn't quite to your liking. When the companies start using techniques that can't be pirated then you've got the end of that issue.
 
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