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Piracy

Slasher

Suck It
So DS backups are OK but PSX ISO's aren't....that's some messed up logic there....

The PSP doesn't emulate the DS in any playable state, so try again champ. We're talking about the PSP here.
 

FrozenIpaq

Justin B / Supp. Editor
Enforcer Team
Well Ipaq, you can take that up with EvilSeph. What I said was a copy & paste of what EvilSeph posted in the HEN thread to shut people up :p

Besides, you're talking US laws. US laws don't account for the entire world - like Hellcat pointed out Germany is one of many that allows it.

I'm talking US laws because that is where I am from and some other admins/staff. On the "internet" most of the websites are US-based and thus follow the US copyright laws and acts, thus the DMCA. US laws do not account for the entire world but they certainly account for me and my argument...

On the topic of ROMs = ISOs (ROMs != ISOs, that shouldn't even be an issue/subject)
 

xist

Member
The PSP doesn't emulate the DS in any playable state, so try again champ. We're talking about the PSP here.


No we're not "champ" (no need to get tetchy!)....we're talking about game piracy. A backup is a backup...whether you like it or not, if you're backing up a game you're breaking the intended agreement.

From an NDS game manual:-

You Shall Not:-

*Make copies of this product or any part thereof,...

*Unless an authorized copy of the Product is electronically delivered to you, copy this product onto a hard drive or other storage device; you must run this product from the included....Nintendo DS game card.

That same agreement has gone for all games on previous consoles. You're blindfolding yourself if you think that there's a difference between an ISO and a ROM. Only when a game has gone into public domain or abandonware (such as ZX Spectrum game images) is it's backup and/or distribution legal.

And i'm going to sleep now so knock yourself out "humiliating me". I'm sure i'll split my sides come the morrow...
 

Slasher

Suck It
Well i'm talking about the PSP since that's where this entire discussion originated.

If you feel like randomly turning it around to piracy in general - excluding the PSP - then I don't feel like participating in this discussion :/
 

Slasher

Suck It
I'm talking US laws because that is where I am from and some other admins/staff. On the "internet" most of the websites are US-based and thus follow the US copyright laws and acts, thus the DMCA. US laws do not account for the entire world but they certainly account for me and my argument...

On the topic of ROMs = ISOs (ROMs != ISOs, that shouldn't even be an issue/subject)

That's nice that most internet sites are US based. Does that have much of anything to do with what other countries copyright laws are? I don't think a whole lot. If I download a ROM of a game that I already own, then I'm legally doing so where I live.

At least we know how the US laws are now, but what about other countries?

You can't say "Slasher you are wrong to say that "ROMs are legal so long as you own the game", that's a completely wrong misconception." when you aren't even taking other countries into consideration. I'm not from the US, so US laws don't apply to me. Canadian laws say ROMS are legal if you own the game so that's why I said what I said. It's why I also said afterwards that "I suppose some countries don't allow it, but it's not completely illegal [in other countries]."

I'm looking at it from more of a broader perspective, taking other countries into account.
On the topic of ROMs = ISOs (ROMs != ISOs, that shouldn't even be an issue/subject)

AGREED
 

FrozenIpaq

Justin B / Supp. Editor
Enforcer Team
That's nice that most internet sites are US based. Does that have much of anything to do with what other countries copyright laws are? I don't think a whole lot. If I download a ROM of a game that I already own, then I'm legally doing so where I live.

At least we know how the US laws are now, but what about other countries?

You can't say "Slasher you are wrong to say that "ROMs are legal so long as you own the game", that's a completely wrong misconception." when you aren't even taking other countries into consideration. I'm not from the US, so US laws don't apply to me. Canadian laws say ROMS are legal if you own the game so that's why I said what I said. It's why I also said afterwards that "I suppose some countries don't allow it, but it's not completely illegal [in other countries]."

I'm looking at it from more of a broader perspective, taking other countries into account.


AGREED

You understood that I was discussing US Copyright Laws and I clearly stated a US act in my argument, I'm not arguing or ignoring other countries - I was just saying the way it was in my country. Also do you have proof that ROMs are legal in Canada if you own the game? I find that hard to believe, even if ES says it - where's the proof? That's something I was hoping you would procure up (or someone else)
 

Slasher

Suck It
You understood that I was discussing US Copyright Laws and I clearly stated a US act in my argument, I'm not arguing or ignoring other countries - I was just saying the way it was in my country. Also do you have proof that ROMs are legal in Canada if you own the game? I find that hard to believe, even if ES says it - where's the proof? That's something I was hoping you would procure up (or someone else)

I've been searching around for a good while now and can't find any concrete source that says it is indeed legal. I hear a lot of chitchatter though on forums and sites like yahoo answers that say it's not illegal in Canada.

Could you possibly likewise find something saying that it IS illegal to have roms in the US?

There's so much misinformation flying around, I don't know what to believe.
 

FrozenIpaq

Justin B / Supp. Editor
Enforcer Team
I've been searching around for a good while now and can't find any concrete source that says it is indeed legal. I hear a lot of chitchatter though on forums and sites like yahoo answers that say it's not illegal in Canada.

Could you possibly likewise find something saying that it IS illegal to have roms in the US?

There's so much misinformation flying around, I don't know what to believe.

I did extensive research into this matter as far as the DMCA goes and the various clauses and exceptions, I'm just going off of what I found back then (in the times of the QJ piracy debate) and if I can whip up an old post of mine on it I'll provide it for you, otherwise I don't have the time to look through everything again. From my memory the DMCA states that you are allowed to have archival copies however you cannot circumvent securities
 

Fives

New Member
Well i'm talking about the PSP since that's where this entire discussion originated.

If you feel like randomly turning it around to piracy in general - excluding the PSP - then I don't feel like participating in this discussion :/

this whole discussion is based on piracy in general not *just* on the psp
 

Slasher

Suck It
this whole discussion is based on piracy in general not *just* on the psp

I moved our little discussion into here from a thread that was located in the PSP section. We were going offtopic so that's why I moved it into here.
 

xist

Member
Originally Posted by Slasher View Post

Originally Posted by FrozenIpaq View Post

On the topic of ROMs = ISOs (ROMs != ISOs, that shouldn't even be an issue/subject)
AGREED

How can you agree to that but still maintain that there's a difference between PSX backups and N64 backups?

And this was never about PSP piracy specifically but the legality of running emulators in general but forbidding PSP and PSX backups due to their legal status. Your argument then was that the latter were ISO's and therefore illegal whilst the former (games for emulators) were all ROMs and thus legal. You've just said that in your opinion there's no distinction between ROMs and ISO's....that would mean that an ISO loader or an enabled pops would be equivalent to one of the currently functioning emulators.

On purely legal grounds the reasons for not developing a way to play PSP/PSX games seems a bit nonsensical given we can play (for example) N64, GBA and SNES games to our hearts content. After all they're not giving these games away on the Virtual Console!
 

wololo

New Member
On purely legal grounds the reasons for not developing a way to play PSP/PSX games seems a bit nonsensical given we can play (for example) N64, GBA and SNES games to our hearts content. After all they're not giving these games away on the Virtual Console!
True, But Davee's reasons were not only legal (since this whole conversation started with the HEN).

It would require extra work (not mentioning dangerous for compatibility) to actually prevent people from playing emulators from the HEN, since these are standard homebrews.
PSX/PSP ISOS, on the other hand, would have required extra work to run.

The distinction was therefore not in the legality (initially), but in how the PSP technically makes a difference between PSX games, PSP games, and Eboots
 

january39

eXo Staff
Does it help if i mention that some use ISO's within a PSP solely because it is quicker and more effeicient and alos DO NOT condone piracy?

I am getting a little tired of reading that simply because i am using ISO's over the UMD (in PSP anyway) that i must be shot where i stand. I purchase every game i have and sell them again once finshed to free funds for another purchase - all ISO's are deleted. (free's space on the hardrive).

Piracy is the #1 reason there is a lack of quality titles for the PSP in general and probably causes the lack of software houses prepared to Dev for PSP.

Incidentally, many of the emulators require BIOS files (illegall, outside of the native console) and all require the ROM which if i am not mistaken it is very unlikely anyone has the original because if they did they would have the console also thus rendering the emulator a little pointless.
 

xist

Member
My argument was never that an ISO loader need be developed, just that it's hypocrisy for the righteous to chime on about the use of PSP ISO's but then go and happily emulate Pokemon.

And whilst Piracy has indeed had an impact upon the PSP software development, it's by no means the Number One reason why games aren't being made. NDS piracy is rife, but the amount of advertising and in your face marketing that Nintendo has embarked upon never lets anyone (whether they own a DS or not!) forget that the latest franchise is out. Most of those people would be hard pressed to remember the PSP even existed as they watched some random celebrity play DS/Wii games. Sony has truly dropped the ball with their marketing, and that's far more to blame for the PSP being dead than Piracy....Sony decided that they'd support the PS3 and seemed to forget they needed to advertise the PSP.

When it only takes a single audio tone to make you think of the DS you can appreciate how invasive the Nintendo campaigns have become.
 

Slasher

Suck It
How can you agree to that but still maintain that there's a difference between PSX backups and N64 backups?

He said ROMs != ISOs. As in, ROMs are not ISOs both legally and technically speaking.

Keep in mind, what I'm about to say only applies to PSP ISO's and not necessarily PSX games.

My issue with ISOs/ROMs on the PSP isn't so much about the legality side of it (which I initially posted in haste and didn't really expand upon, but later did), but the fact that ROMS are generally acceptable on the PSP since the consoles we are emulating on the PSP are for the most part no longer in production and are no longer being sold. We really aren't hurting any one company. Piracy may indeed fall into these two categories, but it's certainly different in many respects. This is why we're fine with allowing emulators, but not too keen on allowing PSP ISO's since piracy on the PSP has indeed led to fewer games and fewer support whether that's on a large scale or a small scale. Legal or not, I can fully understand why Davee didn't take the extra time to provide us with a PSP ISO launcher because he wanted to help circumvent legitimate piracy. This is what we mean when we say, "Davee has not added an ISO loader because he's against piracy". It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that PSP ISO's are not the same thing as the ROM's that we play, in many different respects.

This is why ISO's are != (not equal to) ROM's.

If you want to call ISO's and ROM's the same thing in this type of rational thinking, then you're kidding yourself. As far as calling them the same thing as far as the law goes - well that depends on where you live. It's legal in some countries and it's illegal in some others.

Taking a look at the allowing of PSX games on the other hand, well I'm not particularly against them since they are again, not really in production or being sold - par the lowsy selection on the PSN store. If Davee has chosen not to create a loader himself, well I can once again fully understand why and respect him for his decision not to.

Like wololo said previously to me, you need to keep in mind that Davee hasn't disabled the use of ISO's or PSX games, he has just chosen to not include them since he's not willing to support piracy. If you're calling him out on that (I'm not sure if you are or not), well then that's just ridiculous.
 

xist

Member
I'm not calling anyone out....Davee's decision is fine by me (i'm not even a HEN user), and he's already done more than enough for the "scene". However, both ROM's and ISO's are images of a storage medium made as a backup....there really is no difference. Your argument appears to be mainly based upon the age of the image in question, and not their actual definition. Otherwise the implication from your posts is that disc based backups are bad and cartridge based backups are good. Since Dreamcast games are ISO's you're therefore drawing a parallel between them and PSP games, and that really is nonsensical.

My contention is also the constant stream of "Buy your games" comments. Some of it is deserved, but others would just like the ability to dump their own UMD's and rip their own PSX discs, and there really is a distinction between that and piracy.

As i said before, with the Wii's Virtual Console enabling many of these classic games to live again, the use of emulators may still indeed be impinging upon sales despite them not being sold in their original physical format. There are shades of grey in the matter but in black and white terms only (and on a global scale), all backups (unless made public domain, such as Most ZX Spectrum images) are stretching the boundaries of what is legally acceptable in terms of copyright law.

I'm not bothered either way, and am not trying to preach or make an issue...it's just those who really see a definite distinction between playing backups of a GBA game and a PSP game are kidding themselves (the majority of DS's in existence have a GBA slot...go figure what it's for!). In this matter no-one is whiter than white, unless the laws of your home country dictate that the Terms of Use laid out by the software companies are null and void.
 

january39

eXo Staff
Is it possible to get ZX spectrum images and that these images are excempt from copyright?
 
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