Gun Control

[soha]

Let's take this into consideration: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/081128/world/toy_store_shooting_1

Would this have happened in a country that doesn't allow guns? Probably not. By allowing people to walk around with guns in their belts, people tend to "feel" they have more power and make irrational decisions.

Yes, just because guns are banned doesn't mean that criminals won't get their hands on them. Odds are he was just some mexican gang member carrying a gun around without a ccw permit so he was carrying it illegally (ccw's are nearly impossible to get in commiefornia), so my guess is that he obtained the gun illegally as well.

also article very, very, related, it's what happens when governments disarm people in every way possible like most of you idiots would like them too:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tick-retired-teacher-78-offensive-weapon.html

 

[Slasher]

Yes, just because guns are banned doesn't mean that criminals won't get their hands on them. Odds are he was just some mexican gang member carrying a gun around without a ccw permit so he was carrying it illegally (ccw's are nearly impossible to get in commiefornia), so my guess is that he obtained the gun illegally as well.

also article very, very, related, it's what happens when governments disarm people in every way possible like most of you idiots would like them too:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tick-retired-teacher-78-offensive-weapon.html

So you're into stereotyping and racial profiling? cool, totally respectable... With my understanding, I was under the impression that it was a dispute between a toy which in turn escalated into an all out argument resulting in a gun being pulled. Is it okay that people should have the right to be carrying a gun around while shopping, or better off, in a toy store? Fucking stupid is the way I see it

@ your article. That seems to be an extreme unfortunate case which IMO has very little to do with gun control. They were worried of activists threatening some sort of group... It's like using the argument that 'once you allow gay people to marry, people will want to start marrying animals, and inanimate objects' - it may happen, but very unlikely and certainly not often.


I think giving people the right to have a gun anywhere they go is ridiculous.

 

[mohaas05]

Ok, let's take away everyone's guns. The whole country is safe!

But wait...

Everyone is killing each other with knives now. That can't do! We must ban those too!

But wait...

Now people are killing each other with rocks. Unacceptable! Ban them at once!

But wait...

Now people are being killed with pencils. Outrageous! They must be rid of!

But wait...

Now everyone is murdering each other with Barry Manilow CD's. How terrible! We must ban it.

But wait...

Now our citizens are commiting crimes with their hands. We must ban them now!


It's a never ending cycle. Soon everyone will be walking around in straitjackets. It'll be like Fahrenheit 451 without the extreme boringness.

 

[Slasher]

Guns vs. objects with a purpose other than killing. Big fucking difference genius. Guns = the potential for a fuck load more deaths. Why does the United States have 10 000+ murders per year by weapons (one of the highest in the world)? Gee, I don't know

(and target practice is just practicing for the kill, so don't throw that at me as another purpose for guns)

 

[soha]

So you're into stereotyping and racial profiling? cool, totally respectable... With my understanding, I was under the impression that it was a dispute between a toy which in turn escalated into an all out argument resulting in a gun being pulled. Is it okay that people should have the right to be carrying a gun around while shopping, or better off, in a toy store? Fucking stupid is the way I see it

And @ your article, obviously there was a reason behind the police confiscating that walking cane that the article failed to dismiss. Perhaps he attacked a student with it or something of the like. Giving reason behind why it was confiscated would probably be a good idea to even support whatever your argument may be. Failing to look at it in retrospect just shows your neglect for any form of gun control to be considered


I think giving people the right to have a gun anywhere they go is ridiculous.

Racial profiling? No, not really, especially when he's in your own "race category".
I doubt that a 78 old man who needs a walking stick to get around would attack someone. You must also not be aware of how bad the UK when I comes to privacy and "weapon" control. They've made 3" or larger knives illegal, they're trying to get pointy knives made illegal and a bunch of other bull.

Apparently you're no good at reading, HE WAS MOST LIKELY CARRYING THE GUN ILLEGALLY, in California, where this happened, it is illegal to carry a weapon without a ccw, which are nearly impossible to get in that state.

Also please study this. Out of the 1,408,907 licenses issued only 3,716 were revoked for being used in a crime within a 21 year period (in Florida btw).
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

And read this
http://felonsforguncontrol.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/kennesaw-ga/

 

[Slasher]

Racial profiling? No, not really, especially when he's in your own "race category".
I doubt that a 78 old man who needs a walking stick to get around would attack someone. You must also not be aware of how bad the UK when I comes to privacy and "weapon" control. They've made 3" or larger knives illegal, they're trying to get pointy knives made illegal and a bunch of other bull.

Please tell me that this following quote is not stereotyping or racial profiling: "Odds are he was just some mexican gang member carrying a gun around without a ccw permit so he was carrying it illegally (ccw's are nearly impossible to get in commiefornia), so my guess is that he obtained the gun illegally as well."

and mind sourcing me with any of that information?

Apparently you're no good at reading, HE WAS MOST LIKELY CARRYING THE GUN ILLEGALLY, in California, where this happened, it is illegal to carry a weapon without a ccw, which are nearly impossible to get in that state.

Whose to say "HE WAS MOST LIKELY CARRYING THE GUN ILLEGALLY"? That's a bullshit assumption based on what YOU believe. Wait till more information gets released.

And read this
http://felonsforguncontrol.wordpress...0/kennesaw-ga/

The only reason that "crime dropped" was because the population of that town was so miniscule, and then it absolutely soared. It went from 5242 in 1981 (when the law passed) to 20 000 in 2000 to over 30 000 as of 2005. Surprise, surprise

 

[soha]

Mind sourcing me with any of that information?

No source one this (about the old man not doing shit), I'm just basing that on the fact that the country is fucking batshit insane.

Whose to say "HE WAS MOST LIKELY CARRYING THE GUN ILLEGALLY"? That's a bullshit assumption based on what YOU believe. Wait till more information gets released.

Apparently shootings like this are new to you. They happen all the time in so cal. I should know, I live in the middle of Florencia 13, Rollin 40's, Hoovers, and 18 street gang territory. And in none of the shootings that happened here, that involved someone carrying a gun, did a single person ever have a ccw (well to my knowledge). BTW, If he had a ccw i'll give you a rim job.

The only reason that "crime dropped" was because the population of that town absolutely soared. It went from 20 000 in 2000 to over 30 000 as of 2005. Surprise, surprise

Shit, by that logic Los Angeles should be a safe haven.

 

[TacticalPenguin]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#United_Kingdom
2. simple probability is to say he was most likely carrying it illegally. if you knew much at all about how strict laws are with firearms in California (despite a huge chunk of the crime occurring there), you wouldn't be asking.

and it's not really racial profiling when it is the majority.

 

[soha]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#United_Kingdom
2. simple probability is to say he was most likely carrying it illegally. if you knew much at all about how strict laws are with firearms in California (despite a huge chunk of the crime occurring there), you wouldn't be asking.

and it's not really racial profiling when it is the majority.

Why thank you TacticalPenguin

Please tell me that this following quote is not stereotyping or racial profiling: "Odds are he was just some mexican gang member carrying a gun around without a ccw permit so he was carrying it illegally (ccw's are nearly impossible to get in commiefornia), so my guess is that he obtained the gun illegally as well."

I think I know my own "race" better than other "races" would. It is stereotyping but I stereotype based on what I know.
Also lets not make this a "race" debate.
BTW I quote "race" because to me that word is pretty fucking retarded.

 

[Slasher]

Just thought these were interesting enough

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".
- Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology University of Ottawa

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."
- International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.

In 1999, there were 28 874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day. The homicide rate is 5.6 murders per 100 000 people. In 2000, 75 685 people (27/100 000) suffered non-fatal firearm gunshot injuries.

Why is it that all of these statistics (even homicides in general) are much higher in the United States than in other similarly developed countries? Things seem to be pointing that it's because guns are allowed. Take Canada for example: We allow guns, but with much stricter gun control laws including mandatory registration. Our homicide is more than half of the United States at 1.9 homicides per 100 000 people, and our gun crime is 1/3 of the United States in comparison to per 100 000 people.
Wtf? Why is it that United States violent crime rate is towering over other nations, mind giving a reason?

 

[soha]

Just thought these were interesting enough

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".
- Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology University of Ottawa

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."
- International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.

In 1999, there were 28 874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day. The homicide rate is 5.6 murders per 100 000 people. In 2000, 75 685 people (27/100 000) suffered non-fatal firearm gunshot injuries.

Bull. Take a look at places like California where you'd have to bust your balls to get a gun. Take a look at Mexico where guns are for the most part banned. Gun crime is pretty high even though there are strict gun control laws. Care to explain why?

Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 of them have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.
Ibid

In 1976, Washington,D.C. enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
Dr. Gary Kleck, University of Florida

20% of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just six percent of the population – New York, Chicago, Detroit, and Washington, D.C. – and each has a virtual prohibition on private handguns
Ibid

Why is it that all of these statistics (even homicides in general) are much higher in the United States than in other similarly developed countries? Things seem to be pointing that it's because guns are allowed. Take Canada for example: We allow guns, but with much stricter gun control laws including mandatory registration. Our homicide is more than half of the United States at 1.9 homicides per 100 000 people, and our gun crime is 1/3 of the United States in comparison to per 100 000 people.

Switzerland requires that every male over the age of 20 to own an assault rifle (specifically SIG 550 in 5.56 cal.). In one study by David Kopel of seven countries, including the United States and Japan, Switzerland is found to be one of the safest countries in the study.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/LawRev/lrnylstk.htm

Background checks are conducted before you can purchase the gun btw.

Wtf? Why is it that United States violent crime rate is towering over other nations, mind giving a reason?

Drugs & gangs are the two main things that come into mind.

 

[Terra]

Just to add to the debate, re Canada, here is an excerpt from the report on the results of gun control enacted after the Port Arthur massacre (35 people shot)
Setting: Australia, 1979

 

[Slasher]

Bull. Take a look at places like California where you'd have to bust your balls to get a gun. Take a look at Mexico where guns are for the most part banned. Gun crime is pretty high even though there are strict gun control laws. Care to explain why?

Taking California into consideration, and other major population areas, wouldn't people just go to other states and get their guns if it's so strict in California? Gun control should be made at a federal level IMO making it much more effective. And looking at Mexico: There are so many different things wrong with Mexico's governmental structure that their implemented gun control laws are virtually ineffective. Corruption is rampant in Mexico, and even despite this, America still tops them in murder w/firearm per 100 000 people. In addition to this, America also manages to top them in just about everything else except for murder w/out firearms (America has more aggravated assaults, rapes, thefts, and carjackings per 100 000 population).

There's really little use in trying to place blame on other things when homicide rate is conducted by a country as a whole. Even the article that YOU gave me can come to terms with "...yes, we've got way more murder, way more rape, way more armed robbery than other nations..."

Switzerland requires that every male over the age of 20 to own an assault rifle (specifically SIG 550 in 5.56 cal.). In one study by David Kopel of seven countries, including the United States and Japan, Switzerland is found to be one of the safest countries in the study.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/LawRev/lrnylstk.htm

Not sure where you came up with what you said here, but it certainly was not mentioned in the article. There isn't anything even remotely related to "seven countries" being studied and one of them being found the "safest".
In Switzerland, at the age of 20 you are required to join the military for several weeks each year for the next 35 years of your life.
"What the gun laws do in Switzerland, in a way, is the same kind of thing that they do in Japan, which is to reinforce the existing social order. What I think Switzerland and Japan collectively suggest is that the issue is, not how many guns are there in the society but, how guns are viewed in the society and how they fit into the overall system of socializing individuals in the society."
Joining the military does in fact give them an assault rifle, so I'll give you that much...
And Japan basically completely outrules guns altogether and there's no need for them. Japan is very safe as a result of this.

What America lacks is what both Japan and Switzerland seemingly have - guns don't fit "into the overall system of socializing individuals in the society" in America.

 

[Darth Budd]

Taking California into consideration, and other major population areas, wouldn't people just go to other states and get their guns if it's so strict in California? Gun control should be made at a federal level IMO making it much more effective. And looking at Mexico: There are so many different things wrong with Mexico's governmental structure that their implemented gun control laws are virtually ineffective. Corruption is rampant in Mexico, and even despite this, America still tops them in murder w/firearm per 100 000 people. In addition to this, America tops them in just about everything else except for murder w/out firearms (America has more aggravated assaults, rapes, thefts, and carjackings per 100 000 population).

There's really little use in trying to place blame on other things when homicide rate is conducted by a country as a whole. Even the article that YOU gave me can come to terms with "...yes, we've got way more murder, way more rape, way more armed robbery than other nations..."

Not sure where you came up with what you said here, but it certainly was not mentioned in the article. There isn't anything even remotely related to "seven countries" being studied and one of them being found the "safest".
In Switzerland, at the age of 20 you are required to join the military for several weeks each year for the next 35 years of your life.
"What the gun laws do in Switzerland, in a way, is the same kind of thing that they do in Japan, which is to reinforce the existing social order. What I think Switzerland and Japan collectively suggest is that the issue is, not how many guns are there in the society but, how guns are viewed in the society and how they fit into the overall system of socializing individuals in the society."
And Japan basically completely outrules guns altogether and there's no need for them. Japan is very safe as a result of this.

What America lacks is what both Japan and Switzerland seemingly have - guns don't fit "into the overall system of socializing individuals in the society".

no, if you did, then you would need to have it shipped to california, which would then initiate your waiting period and background check. if you bought it then smuggled it in, it is illegal.

 

[TacticalPenguin]

How about we stop debating guns themselves for a minute and go back to debating gun CONTROL.

In the United States, it simply does not work. There are a handful or two of huge crime areas as Neurotoxin mentioned and gun control in the majority of them is very strict. Again, in the majority of them, gangs or other criminal entities or just criminals in general run rampant. If we take guns away, criminals and gangs don't care. If we never had them in the first place, they would make their own - it doesn't take much more than trial and error to run a milling machine, and the cost isn't too high either. The time is not an issue if they have the dedication that most gangs and criminals do.

The problem is not guns. Guns do not kill people and their only purpose is not to kill people. Their use is in a huge majority hunting or some sort of sport shooting be it skeet and trap or 3-gun or whatever else. The people using guns to kill people are gangsters and idiots who are too stupid to have a gun anyways.

The problem is letting people who are too stupid or violent to have them get them. The problem is not fixing where the issues are coming from.

Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone.

Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources.

 

[Darth Budd]

notice the guys in the truck are canadian
[YT]qh2Jed20wLk[/YT]

 

[Slasher]

notice the guys in the truck are canadian

What's your point jackass?

Not sure where you found out that they were Canadian other than the fact that they said "Eh" a few times. But even if they were Canadian, does a couple of fucking idiots represent an entire country? I could pull a whole handful of idiots out of your country, but I wouldn't steep that low

Now let's say that the "rednecks" also had a gun; If the guy in the nice car pulled that gun then somebody would have fucking died in a shootout. The responsible thing to do would be to phone the police who would have then taken care of the "rednecks".

Don't forget that this type of situation really doesn't happen, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was faked as well.

 

[Slasher]

So let's take a look in comparison to the largest populated cities in both New York (Strict gun control laws) vs. Texas (Very loose laws).

New York Population: 19 297 729
New York Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2006): 4.8 @ 921 murders in total
New York City Population: 8 274 527
New York City Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2005): 6.6 @ 539 murders in total

vs.

Texas Population: 23 904 380
Texas Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 5.9 @ 1420 murders in total
Houston Population: 2 208 180
Houston Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2006): 17.24 @ 379 murders in total


Quite clearly you can see that gun control DOES help. Murder rates are in fact lower. Now I know that this data doesn't reflect murders committed with a weapon, but I think it's safe to assume that the majority of these homicides were.

Now let's throw Canada's most populous city and province into the mix, Toronto, Ontario. This will provide some insight into just how disproportionate American murders are in comparison to another similar country.

Ontario Population: 12 891 787
Ontario Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 1.6 @ 201 murders in total
Toronto Population (Similar to Houston): 2 503 281
Toronto Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 3.4 @ 84 murders in total

This is a direct correlation to whether guns are accepted or not in society. Guns^ = overall crime, violence, and homicides^. Simple as that. Gun control can, and in practice, does work as seen here.

The argument, "if you take away guns, people will just find other ways to kill each other", is true, but not to the extent at which is intended. People will find other ways to kill each other but nearly at the same rate as seen here. Canada has less guns and so a lot of murders are committed by stabbings, but not nearly as frequent as the murders seen in the US by way of guns.

 

[soha]

So let's take a look in comparison to the largest populated cities in both New York (Strict gun control laws) vs. Texas (Very loose laws).

New York Population: 19 297 729
New York Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2006): 4.8 @ 921 murders in total
New York City Population: 8 274 527
New York City Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2005): 6.6 @ 539 murders in total

vs.

Texas Population: 23 904 380
Texas Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 5.9 @ 1420 murders in total
Houston Population: 2 208 180
Houston Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2006): 17.24 @ 379 murders in total


Quite clearly you can see that gun control DOES help. Murder rates are in fact lower. Now I know that this data doesn't reflect murders committed with a weapon, but I think it's safe to assume that the majority of these homicides were.

Now let's throw Canada's most populous city and province into the mix, Toronto, Ontario. This will provide some insight into just how disproportionate American murders are in comparison to another similar country.

Ontario Population: 12 891 787
Ontario Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 1.6 @ 201 murders in total
Toronto Population (Similar to Houston): 2 503 281
Toronto Homicide Rate/100 000 population (2007): 3.4 @ 84 murders in total

This is a direct correlation to whether guns are accepted or not in society. Guns^ = overall crime, violence, and homicides^. Simple as that. Gun control can, and in practice, does work as seen here.

The argument, "if you take away guns, people will just find other ways to kill each other", is true, but not to the extent at which is intended. People will find other ways to kill each other but nearly at the same rate as seen here. Canada has less guns and so a lot of murders are committed by stabbings, but not nearly as frequent as the murders seen in the US by way of guns.

Once more, with feeling:

In 1976, Washington,D.C. enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
Dr. Gary Kleck, University of Florida
(posted this earlier)

Maryland claims to have the toughest gun control laws in the nation and ranks #1 in robberies, #4 in murder and violent crime. The robbery rate is 70% higher than the national average. These numbers are likely low because one of their more violent cities, Baltimore, failed to report their crime levels.
FBI uniform crime reports 2000 & 2005

New York has one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation, and 20% of armed robberies.
ibid

This isn't a real reply I just decided to fight your stats with my stats.
I'll tackle your other post when I'm done studying for my finals

 

[Slasher]

So posting some obscure random statistics which make guns look good in America is fighting my concrete national homicide average statistics while also incorporating a successfully gun controlled Canada?
Cool.