God Talk

[Terra]

you told us that god made us independent, then asked why he meddled in our affairs, that sir makes no sense, and takes away credibility from your position.

No Darth, I didn't TELL you anything.

There were references in earlier posts that God was responsible for everything.
"god created each person from scratch, and since there is no evidence that being raised a certain way makes you gay, then it is most likely biological. meaning that god created his own abomination.

2. why have sex to let god know that you are ready for a baby? why not just pray? also, if you use a condom you are still having sex, so wouldn't god know anyway?

3. god could make babies instantly so why does it take nine months?"


I then posted a hypothetical question.

I simply ASKED your opinions that if God did these things, what would have been the point of him giving us the equipment to plan our own destiny, with all it risks & rewards.

I asked it because of the assumption here that if there was a God, why would he create "Abominations".

The reason I asked is because I'm open to opinions, or reasons why your beliefs are different to mine.
I'm not demanding to be right. I just have a process of logic that I'm applying to a possibility, & I'm asking for input that may suggest my logic is flawed.

This is my opinion, & it's up for debate if you like.

My belief is that He doesn't interfere. That He gave us the equipment to be the master of our own passage in life.

I don't believe that every event recorded in the bible was carried out to his plan, or reported, interpreted or related accurately.

There were mortal misunderstandings.

Abraham's misunderstanding is a good example. (I'll expand that if you like)

There are key features in the Bible that show what part He was going to play in mans progress, but I believe it was made clear that He was only going to be a guide.
Some of His actions were a display of His capabilities. The people He was dealing with were not scientists, they had to have a "Seeing is believing" demonstration that He meant business, that they weren't just hearing things etc.

I think there is so much emphasis placed on His powers To "Make things right" we have overlooked the purpose of giving us the inherent capabilities to follow a plan that will free up society to pursue the so called "Meaning of life". That is, study, learn, develop & progress.

If He didn't want us to know Him or where He's at, He wouldn't have "given" us the capacity to deny Him
What we have today is all a question of funding (Of science) & the salesmanship to secure it.
In reality, if we were more tolerant (Let alone love) to our neighbour, science would get our War chestS. (The money spent on it.)

I believe he embraces science, & for all we know, our concept of Him may prove to be entirely different from what we have, (The bible) & that is the word & the vision & interpretation of very basic tribally educated, though well intentioned, author/s

Over to you.

 

[FreePlay]

My belief is that He doesn't interfere. That He gave us the equipment to be the master of our own passage in life.

Which means that his existence is essentially a moot point... which is part of the reason I stopped believing.

I don't believe that every event recorded in the bible was carried out to his plan, or reported, interpreted or related accurately.

If human beings can change or even thwart his plan, that sort of undermines his omnipotence, doesn't it?

Some of His actions were a display of His capabilities. The people He was dealing with were not scientists, they had to have a "Seeing is believing" demonstration that He meant business, that they weren't just hearing things etc.

Why don't we see those sort of things anymore? Why did it only happen before mankind had a firm grasp of reason and science, when we still didn't understand much about the world around us? It'd be just as convincing today.

I think there is so much emphasis placed on His powers To "Make things right" we have overlooked the purpose of giving us the inherent capabilities to follow a plan that will free up society to pursue the so called "Meaning of life". That is, study, learn, develop & progress.

As soon as we can stop spending more money on violence than on education and healing, I'm sure we'll progress greatly as a species.

If He didn't want us to know Him or where He's at, He wouldn't have "given" us the capacity to deny Him

Not sure what you mean. Could you explain?

What we have today is all a question of funding (Of science) & the salesmanship to secure it.
In reality, if we were more tolerant (Let alone love) to our neighbour, science would get our War chestS. (The money spent on it.)

Wouldn't that be nice...

I believe he embraces science

Well, I'd certainly hope so.

& for all we know, our concept of Him may prove to be entirely different from what we have, (The bible) & that is the word & the vision & interpretation of very basic tribally educated, though well intentioned, author/s

He'd pretty much have to be. Their understanding of a deity conflicts seriously with many things we know to be true today.

 

[Terra]

If human beings can change or even thwart his plan, that sort of undermines his omnipotence, doesn't it?

When Jesus was sacrificed, I think at that point, God showed His hand. He took no immediate revenge. In fact, I think there was a quelling by Jesus when he implored God to to extract revenge.
There was a very basic human reaction between them during that event.
It was almost like saying "it will only create greater divisiveness"
Jesus was on the ground. He had become accustomed to the every day workings of a peasant free enterprise existence.
God came & went, & was gone for years in these absences.
I also think there has been far too much read into his capacity to observe without being observed.


"If He didn't want us to know Him or where He's at, He wouldn't have "given" us the capacity to deny Him"
Not sure what you mean. Could you explain?

If we use the example of the extremely violent side of religion & dictatorships, where they enforce the rule of commitment with pain & death. There is a reaction that stops people thinking, experimenting, testing & progressing freely. It really stunts the human endeavor & they get left behind because when others beyond their control are not governed by the same rule, their lives become more diverse. This then undermines the control.
I don't think God applied the same rule because he knew that our brain was very complex & our diversity was required in the mix to come out the other end with a proven plan.
We simply learn by experimentation, not stagnation.

Why don't we see those sort of things anymore? Why did it only happen before mankind had a firm grasp of reason and science, when we still didn't understand much about the world around us? It'd be just as convincing today.

At some time, I suppose after Jesus died, He figured that His plan & His capabilities were known well enough, & that exploration would expand it (Missionaries etc.)
I guess He figured that the human response to all his offerings, when they became victim to orators & commercially successful non-believers, coming back every 50-60 years & blowing something up was pretty pointless.

Even today, if it happened, many leaders of militarily powerful countries would not heed the exhibition, & if it killed people, it would reinforce the Hawks opinion that it was an attack of some sort & try & retaliate.
Then there would be reprisals, & if He extinguished our military might He'd have a planet ruled by fear, which he could have had way back when, & it would have been a bloody sight easier as well then..
We have also had a window on His healing powers. Same thing. If He exhibits inexplicable medical skills, people will ask "Why did he create them in the first place. (Medical problems) He didn't. It's the result of genetic inheritance, or microbiology etc. & they have developed the same way we have.

Basically. He gave us a plan of smooth transition, & we have chosen the hard road.

I believe he gave us a plan to get to a dimension that we conform to happily & voluntarily. (Often referred to as "Heaven")
I expect his plan was established because He knows what ingredients are compatible with our metabolism & we are in harmony with it.
I think the great misconception in our lives is that committing to his plan is not as important as understanding it.

Who or whatever He is in our perception is not an issue with me. What I am attracted to is the mental stimulation that things we can't explain in material terms offer a far greater challenge, & they do exist to me.
That's the reason I believe in a greater being. "God" is what He is comfortable with, & so am I.
A dimension that offers mental expansion without conflict would be a next step that I am very comfortable with. I'll just except that He's left enough evidence behind to point me in the right direction.
That's my take.

 

[FreePlay]

If human beings can change or even thwart his plan, that sort of undermines his omnipotence, doesn't it?

When Jesus was sacrificed, I think at that point, God showed His hand. He took no immediate revenge. In fact, I think there was a quelling by Jesus when he implored God to to extract revenge.
There was a very basic human reaction between them during that event.
It was almost like saying "it will only create greater divisiveness"
Jesus was on the ground. He had become accustomed to the every day workings of a peasant free enterprise existence.
God came & went, & was gone for years in these absences.
I also think there has been far too much read into his capacity to observe without being observed.

... that isn't a response to what I said at all...

At some time, I suppose after Jesus died, He figured that His plan & His capabilities were known well enough, & that exploration would expand it (Missionaries etc.)
I guess He figured that the human response to all his offerings, when they became victim to orators & commercially successful non-believers, coming back every 50-60 years & blowing something up was pretty pointless.

Even today, if it happened, many leaders of militarily powerful countries would not heed the exhibition, & if it killed people, it would reinforce the Hawks opinion that it was an attack of some sort & try & retaliate.
Then there would be reprisals, & if He extinguished our military might He'd have a planet ruled by fear, which he could have had way back when, & it would have been a bloody sight easier as well then..
We have also had a window on His healing powers. Same thing. If He exhibits inexplicable medical skills, people will ask "Why did he create them in the first place. (Medical problems) He didn't. It's the result of genetic inheritance, or microbiology etc. & they have developed the same way we have.

Basically. He gave us a plan of smooth transition, & we have chosen the hard road.

...what? Why would God's revealing of himself have to be something exploding, or something violent?? Jesus supposedly raised people from the dead. If someone came back from being dead for several days, you can bet we'd be forced to accept God's existence. Why doesn't he do anything like that anymore?

I believe he gave us a plan to get to a dimension that we conform to happily & voluntarily. (Often referred to as "Heaven")
I expect his plan was established because He knows what ingredients are compatible with our metabolism & we are in harmony with it.
I think the great misconception in our lives is that committing to his plan is not as important as understanding it.

You've totally lost me.

Who or whatever He is in our perception is not an issue with me. What I am attracted to is the mental stimulation that things we can't explain in material terms offer a far greater challenge, & they do exist to me.
That's the reason I believe in a greater being. "God" is what He is comfortable with, & so am I.

Defining God as "the explanation for things we can't explain" just means that God will keep shrinking as we keep learning more and more. It's the God of the Gaps argument... and it's a really bad basis for faith.

A dimension that offers mental expansion without conflict would be a next step that I am very comfortable with. I'll just except that He's left enough evidence behind to point me in the right direction.
That's my take.

I have no clue what you're talking about. At all. It isn't anything Biblical or even remotely Christian-sounding.

 

[Darth Budd]

Here is an article you might find interesting, i know it doesn't make sense for this thread at first, but skip ahead to #1 and it becomes completely relevant.

 

[Terra]

... that isn't a response to what I said at all......what? Why would God's revealing of himself have to be something exploding, or something violent?? Jesus supposedly raised people from the dead. If someone came back from being dead for several days, you can bet we'd be forced to accept God's existence. Why doesn't he do anything like that anymore?You've totally lost me.Defining God as "the explanation for things we can't explain" just means that God will keep shrinking as we keep learning more and more. It's the God of the Gaps argument... and it's a really bad basis for faith.I have no clue what you're talking about. At all. It isn't anything Biblical or even remotely Christian-sounding.

Well mate, I've tried to explain in an evidential way, what my interpretation of His messages have meant.
By saying that "If someone came back from being dead for several days, you can bet we'd be forced to accept God's existence."
The operative word here is "Forced".
He did that & it didn't work.
As I've already said, He is not into "Force".

The Bible was His introduction to us. His son was his proof of existence.
He left a legacy, & an option. He gave us the capacity to investigate & to judge.

If you have no faith in that, He is not going to kill you for it. It's your option.

He asked us to share some pretty elementary things. Care, respect, tolerance & integrity. What he got in return was ungracious demands for personal benefits & promises of ElDorado.

Faith is the only passage left for us. We can take it or leave it, & to me, there are greater things beyond anthropology.

 

[Chathurga]

If you have no faith in that, He is not going to kill you for it. It's your option.

So why did he bother trying to show us he's real if he doesn't give a crap if we believe? Sounds very convoluted to me.

He asked us to share some pretty elementary things. Care, respect, tolerance & integrity. What he got in return was ungracious demands for personal benefits & promises of ElDorado.

And then why do we have a genetic predisposition to protect numero uno? We have free will but also and in built drive to survive and do as well as we can, sometimes at the expense at others. Seems to a massive folly on his part to make us want to fuck each other over if he really wants us to get along.

 

[FreePlay]

Well mate, I've tried to explain in an evidential way, what my interpretation of His messages have meant.

I haven't seen any evidence yet.

By saying that "If someone came back from being dead for several days, you can bet we'd be forced to accept God's existence."
The operative word here is "Forced".
He did that & it didn't work.

No, he didn't. You'll notice I mentioned that, conveniently, he doesn't do it anymore, now that we're more intellectually mature as a species.

As I've already said, He is not into "Force".

If you're going to go Biblically, yes, he most definitely is. The Biblical God is a jealous deity who will force all knees to bow and all tongues to confess his name. Most certainly into force.

The Bible was His introduction to us. His son was his proof of existence.

Please tell me you're not serious.

If you have no faith in that, He is not going to kill you for it. It's your option.

No, he'll just send you to an eternity of suffering and damnation for making the wrong choice. In other words, he holds you hostage and forces you to choose between torture and his way.

Faith is the only passage left for us. We can take it or leave it, & to me, there are greater things beyond anthropology.

What on earth does faith have to do with anthropology??

Seriously, if we're going to have an intelligible conversation about God, we're going to have to define what/who God is. Otherwise, we might as well not talk at all. You make all these praising statements about the Bible, but then go on to talk about a God that is completely non-Biblical and a concept of the afterlife that nowhere near represents the Christian version. I have no idea where you're coming from.

 

[TheMysteriousThug]

My grandpa says god helps those who help themselves. Then...really. What's the point of believing in a god?

 

[eighty4]

My grandpa says god helps those who help themselves. Then...really. What's the point of believing in a god?

You honesty don't understand what he's saying?

 

[TheMysteriousThug]

You honesty don't understand what he's saying?

No. I do. I just find that if someone can get their act together. They sure as hell don't need some fictional being to help them.

 

[eighty4]

-.-

He's saying that those who help themselves to finding his love will be the ones he saves. Those who God knows in their hearts are looking for something better in life and don;t want to be that drug dealer, or that ex-convict anymore - he will help.

It's a saying that has been around for years and has a deep impact if you actually think.

 

[TheMysteriousThug]

God didn't help me out of my depression? God never made me feel at ease? I can easily say that god, this figure of perfection and divinity has done nothing to make me feel better. I got help on my own. Without god. I'm as healthy as ever. I'm not as neurotically anxious as I used to be. All without the help of god. God didn't take me into the hospital after having having a mental breakdown. Because my environment did not help me either. And now I know that those who my mom told me to ignore. My actual family. Are the working class heroes I love and admire. They may believe in god. But I think the world of them and I think the less of imaginings such as Yahweh/Allah/God/Adonai

 

[eighty4]

Depression is just built up selfishness. Only you can help yourself with that. Feeling at ease is also selfishness. How do you think people in 3rd world countries feel? At ease? Hell no.

God doesn't just magically make you feel better whenever he feels like it, you need to ask - ray for yourself.

 

[TheMysteriousThug]

I prayed for years. Depression isn't selfishness. Depression is built-up sadness, frustration, anger. And during that time. I made sure I tried to be as un-selfish as possible. I even catered to those were rude to me. Because I was hoping to end any conflict. But it didn't help. I grew gradually worse as kids insulted me of my clothes and my hair being long. I was called grimey and smelly. And gave those kids money just so they could leave me alone.

Now. I'm healthy. I'm able to relax for once. I don't have my anxiety and depression controlling what I do.

 

[eighty4]

I prayed for years. Depression isn't selfishness. Depression is built-up sadness, frustration, anger.

Because of what? Something you don't have/got.

 

[TheMysteriousThug]

My mom neglected me. She wasted all our little ammounts of money away. I'm living in a family environment. Where I know I'm getting food. I'd be lucky if my mom would even to cook for me 3 times a YEAR. It isn't material things that caused my depression. She'd just fuck off and buy me cheap microwaveable food, which is so disgusting and having to eat the same thing every single day. So after awhile I began to just eat Frosted Flakes from the box. As the only bowls, plates, spoons, forks I had were all dirty and covered with mold. My environment wouldn't even cater to common things. So if that's selfish than call me selfish. Fine. I guess I don't need food, clean clothes, color. And when I say color. I mean that before. The world looked so much darker to me then. As compared to now where I can see beautful things. And admire them. This is new to me.

 

[ChurchedAtheist]

Because of what? Something you don't have/got.

no, it is usually because of significant issues in life happening to you or a loved one, or, in many cases, a chemical imbalance.

 

[eighty4]

My mom neglected me. She wasted all our little ammounts of money away. I'm living in a family environment. Where I know I'm getting food. I'd be lucky if my mom would even to cook for me 3 times a YEAR. It isn't material things that caused my depression. She'd just fuck off and buy me cheap microwaveable food, which is so disgusting and having to eat the same thing every single day. So after awhile I began to just eat Frosted Flakes from the box. As the only bowls, plates, spoons, forks I had were all dirty and covered with mold. My environment wouldn't even cater to common things. So if that's selfish than call me selfish. Fine. I guess I don't need food, clean clothes, color. And when I say color. I mean that before. The world looked so much darker to me then. As compared to now where I can see beautful things. And admire them. This is new to me.

My father was shot in front of my face when i was 7 and simply enjoying the only time that i was able to see him out of uniform. My mom tried committing suicide 3 times and I've seen her cry more time than I have seen my own hands in front of me. Do you know how it feels when someone you know gets shot in front of you, and you call the police to help, but there's nothing they can do, and what it's like when you see your own mother crying and you yourself can't do a damn thing to make her feel any better? How about having a best friend die in the hospital after they say he's recovering perfectly and should be out in a few days?

I have, and I don't do this "depression" shit. I cry and mourn for a few days an then my life is back to normal. But I will never forget them as people or forget what morals they have taught me and decide to change in any way shape or form. These are MY closest friends and family and I almost lost them all.

 

[Terra]

No. I do. I just find that if someone can get their act together. They sure as hell don't need some fictional being to help them.

There are two many questions asking the same thing, "What can he do for me"
"Why do I need him"

Hiratai is right. I don't think you cynics have the foggiest idea of what I'm saying, other than you want proof that if you embrace him you'll get something out of it.
All I have tried to do is get you to think on a higher plane. One that the rewards don't come with World recognition or a faking V8.

You want God to take you by the hand, but you don't want him interfering in your life?
He can't help you because he doesn't know what you want, that's because you don't know yourself.

Read your own posts & then ask yourself, what right would he have to get involved, let alone the fact that you believe he is just all pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

I was just trying to give you an insight into why I believe in him.

I Mentioned earlier about an out-of-body experience I had. I went on to relate that after that I experienced some "Critical coincidences".
I never explained what they were, because I suspected that if I told you, I would be directed to the Roswell website.

One thing that ought to be pondered though, of all the creatures on earth, we have always been the only ones that search out of curiosity.
Further & further. Deeper & deeper. Higher & higher.
What are we looking for?