God Talk

[Slasher]

Which is not the Ten Commandments.
You said we should base our morality on them. And yet the state has to be the one to tell us not to rape, abuse, enslave, torture, or go to war?

Basically, yeah...
The state has the authority to set up the ground rules based on our cultural values. We obey. Simple as that.
Specific wrong-doings shouldn't have to be listed one by one for a moral code of conduct.

What in the world are you talking about?

The 8th commandment, according to Exodus 20:2–17, is "remember the Sababth day and keep it holy." According to Deuteronomy 5:6–21, it's "you shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Where on earth do you get anything about promoting truth or witness-bearing from that?

#8 - according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 252" can be seen as having a much deeper meaning than just this simple statement.
"2468 Truth as uprightness in human action and speech is called truthfulness, sincerity, or candor. Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and in guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy."

Because that's not at all what the Ten Commandments are. They're religious rules, not moral commands.
It's very convenient to turn around and say that they're categories or generalizations, when in fact they're quite specific in what they say. Interpreting "honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you" to mean that you should obey the government is ridiculous.

I think they can be interpreted as both. Depends how you want to see it.
Seeing them as general moral subject headings is the way I see it. Taking what you quoted (a moral subject heading), and then building upon it is a perfect way of outlining morals. Afterall, as I previously said, "Obviously some elaborating is going to have to be involved to build upon your basic morals." Interpretation comes after the moral subject heading.
Make sense?

Except those people who disagree with the vast majority of them, seeing how they're exclusively dealing with the Christian god.

Some of the commandments do indeed have little (or nothing) to do with morality, and are therefor disregarded in most cases. For the most part though, they do deal with morality (mainly >= 5).
The 10 commandments are seen in most major religions including Christianity, Hebrew, Islam, and Judaism, and are pretty much entirely identical.
Exclusively dealing with the Christian god? Nope.

Show me when it has!

In pretty much every case.
Ever heard of where children died on a school bus by being hit by a train? Then if you put your car on the tracks (and powder your rear bumper), your car will "magically" move, and little hand marks can even be seen on the back of your car afterwards? I know there's an explanation for this along the lines of "oil from your hands seep through the baby powder" but that seems very unlikely and is just a theory.
Or what about seeing civil war ghosts still fighting over a century later in the same battlefield dressed in their same uniforms?
I know this isn't exactly a reputable source either, but some of the paranormal shows on TV certainly show some sort of evidence as well.

This is a whole other issue in itself, but I just also thought, what about psychics? How can they see the future? Sure, some are fake or scams, but some are surprisingly legit. I was looked at by a psychic a few months ago, and she knew all sorts of things about me that nobody could possibly of known, even predicting some things in my life that have happened recently like car troubles (tires in particular). Just another bit of consideration leading to something unexplainable.

No. Do the synchronized motions of birds, ants, fish, etc. prove God's existence?

No?
Like I said before, "Well ants are really incomparable in this type of situation - they communicate by releasing pheromones which other ants basically smell, and then react too. They must be within reasonable proximity for them to actually smell the pheromones, so you're "psychic experience" with your uncle as an example is basically contradicting this. In humans, we can indeed release pheromones through the pores of our skin, but the only related result works only with the opposite sex and it is strictly for enhanced attraction purposes. They in no way can interfere with our perception of reality, or be used as a "communication" peripheral like telepathy. Birds communicate through body language, much like we do, sounds and gestures being an example. Their senses are enhanced, but essentially the same as ours."

Also, I would just like to clarify I am not in any way saying paranormal events can prove God's existence. I'm just merely using the paranormal as an example to open up the idea that something after death might in fact be real. Who knows? Maybe there is? Maybe there isn't?

Show me when this has happened.

The Rosenheim poltergeist case, Enfield Poltergeist case, Canneto di Caronia fires case, as well as the Mackenzie Poltergeist. There's many more if you want them.

Why does your lack of capacity for comprehension indicate the existence of a God?

Sounds more like a lack of understanding and openness on your part.

right. You told your friend a ghost story and convinced him he saw it. Now where's your evidence? Where's your third-party corroboration?

It wasn't like that, and you of all people should know enough not to come to conclusions so ubruptly . Considering I never told him about this little boy, and he said "whose that" when it occured, I beg to differ. There's no evidence, just my own first person experience.

The fact that you can say you "don't 'want it to be paranormal'" and that you think it's related to "something after death"... in the same sentence... is astonishing.

Why not? If you took the time to consider it in retrospect than you would be able to figure out that I merely suggest it to perhaps by related. I in absolutely no way consider it fact, or think it IS related.

Please, give me ONE thing that hasn't been debunked.

Refer to above

So why should we attempt to disprove them?

Out of curiosity? Why does this phenomena occur?
There have been efforts to disprove the paranormal, but not everything can be disproved. This leaves room for speculation.

 

[matt]

That is THE stupidest thing I've ever heard. OK, if there was a guy who killed everyone who didn't agree with him, wouldn't you call him an asshole? Now, compare that same guy to your version of God.

First you say that God judges people on their beliefs. (Christianity) Then, you say that he judges them on their morals. So, if I'm an Atheist but follow the same morals as Christians, am I still doomed to go to hell? (A question asked twice by madsoul, but avoided.)


You seriously need to reconsider your thoughts. If there's a God up there, I'm sure he likes all of his creations equally. I don't think he's going to send most of us to hell for eternity.

If there was a HUMAN who killed everyone who didn't agree with him, I would call him an asshole. We are talking about God the creator. He created you in the first place, and if you don't have faith in him then you go to Hell.

I don't recall saying God judges people on their morals. You could have bad morals, but if you ask forgiveness of your sins you will be saved. You could go to heaven if you were a merciless killer but then turned to god, were sorry for your sins, and stayed true to god. If you are a good person and do what is right, but don't believe in God, then yes you will go to Hell because you have no faith in God.

 

[matt]

Even though it shows serious human flaws?

The bible is the word of God. God didn't write it down himself, no, but it was written and influenced by God through Humans who experienced him.

Something tells me you haven't read all of God's word.

Your right, I have not read the whole Bible cover to cover. But from what I have read all my life, God is fair and just in all things. If God ever punished someone, they deserved it.

That's the DEFINITION OF A CHRISTIAN!

Yes, but other religions have God and Jesus as well.

Why not?! He MADE them that way! How is that THEIR fault?

Seriously, you build a person a certain way, then DAMN THEM FOR ALL ETERNITY FOR BEING THAT WAY?! What an asshole!!

God gave humans free will. They must choose to have faith in God, so it is their fault if they go to Hell.

 

[madsoul]

I He created you in the first place, and if you don't have faith in him then you go to Hell.

then could this god please have given me a damn sign of his existence instead of hiding from me and making me think he do not exist?

If you are a good person and do what is right, but don't believe in God, then yes you will go to Hell because you have no faith in God.

and that makes him as bad as hitler. ofcourse i have a very hard time to belive in something that wont give me anything in return in any way! if he would want his people to belive in him then he has to show us non belivers that he exists! is it that hard for god to understand?

 

[madsoul]

The bible is the word of God. God didn't write it down himself

lol

yeah, it cant be god that has written the bible for sure, since god is such a nice fellow.

since the bible is full of nasty horrible discriminating things.
if it really is gods words, then why do humans rewrite some parts of the bible to fit in with todays society?

 

[matt]

then could this god please have given me a damn sign of his existence instead of hiding from me and making me think he do not exist?

and that makes him as bad as hitler. ofcourse i have a very hard time to belive in something that wont give me anything in return in any way! if he would want his people to belive in him then he has to show us non belivers that he exists! is it that hard for god to understand?

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss21.html

This explains it better than I could.

And what do you mean when you say that you have a hard time believing in something that won't give you anything in return? God will give you eternal life! That is the greatest gift one could ever recieve!

This will be my last post for the night. Time to sleep.

 

[LocutusEstBorg]

And you wonder why? Put yourself in a Developer's shoes. If people all thought like you and didn't pay for the things they acquired, there would be nothing left for them to steal because producing those items would not be worthwhile. If people thought like you and did not pay you for your hard work, then you would still be in the same situation - you would not have income to buy stuff. Why? Because other people shared your mentality that if they do not have the ability to buy things, they won't. They'll just take it.

Well like I said morals are subjective, and I certainly don't expect you to agree with my argument especially since your a professional developer.

Now listen to my point of view: My PS2 and PSP were both gifts from my aunt who lives in the USA and earns lots of $$$. Now believe this or not she disallows her kids to download stuff and makes it a point to buy original games for them.

I live in a stupid 3rd world country and any original software or game costs like 1/3rd of my salary, which I simply cannot afford to spend. As a developer, your market over here is completely non-existent, except for the very rich people.

Why would you waste time acquiring something if you would have never bought it? I find this logic immensely laughable. You are a despicable thief.

Simply because I can get it for free. I do buy genuine stuff after saving up for several months, unlike half of your on these forums who are rich enough to buy every software you need and every game that comes out for your console.

Yes I admit its thievery in one form or the other, but it doesn't prick my conscience because my actions haven't caused you any loss. But I can't say the same for someone who has the cash but prefers to be cheap and pirate.

 

[madsoul]

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss21.html

This explains it better than I could.

And what do you mean when you say that you have a hard time believing in something that won't give you anything in return? God will give you eternal life! That is the greatest gift one could ever recieve!

This will be my last post for the night. Time to sleep.

the most amazing thing is that you take the bible for granted. if it says in the bible that jesus woke people from the dead, then it MUST be true, since it says so in the holy bible.

the bible was written by hundreds of diferent people through many hundreds of years. it is not gods words at all.

one of my best old friends is a priest near where i live. he has been that for like 7 years now. i like him very much as a friend but sometimes i just dont understand him at all. if you are a priest you should follow the bible word by word otherwhize your not talking gods words right? he is really open for gay marriage and has has promissed to do a wedding for one of his best friends that are gay couple. i really like that BUT i cant understand how he can pick and choose the good things in the bible and put the horrific and repulsive stuff away. it is GODS WORDS and they should not be changed to fit in with what we humans think now right? he, wrote it. its GODS WORDS. he hates homosexuals and sees the man higher then the woman. do not CHANGE gods words.

 

[Nero]

the most amazing thing is that you take the bible for granted. if it says in the bible that jesus woke people from the dead, then it MUST be true, since it says so in the holy bible.

the bible was written by hundreds of diferent people through many hundreds of years. it is not gods words at all.

one of my best old friends is a priest near where i live. he has been that for like 7 years now. i like him very much as a friend but sometimes i just dont understand him at all. if you are a priest you should follow the bible word by word otherwhize your not talking gods words right? he is really open for gay marriage and has has promissed to do a wedding for one of his best friends that are gay couple. i really like that BUT i cant understand how he can pick and choose the good things in the bible and put the horrific and repulsive stuff away. it is GODS WORDS and they should not be changed to fit in with what we humans think now right? he, wrote it. its GODS WORDS. he hates homosexuals and sees the man higher then the woman. do not CHANGE gods words.

Exactly, muslims believe that the bible and torah are now corrupt, there are over 50,000 corrupt texts in the bible. And no he does not see man higher than the women, he sees them as equal beings, they both have the same rights.

 

[LocutusEstBorg]

When reading the Bible or the Quran or any sort of religious scripture, it goes without saying that you should apply your common sense as well. There is a lot of bullshit that is simply impractical in today's society which you should be intelligent enough to filter out.

Don't forget that it was still written by humans who might have been fanatics and what not. The dude who wrote the book of revelations was stoned on weed when he wrote it/though of what to write.

Saying that men are superior to women is simply stupid and you are foolish to quote such things.

There are countries who adopt equally stupid "teachings" in their legal system. Like that case of a Muslim woman who was raped while traveling with some dude in a car. After the rape case was handled, she received 50 lashes because she was with a man who was not her husband :neutral:

 

[Access_Denied]

If there was a HUMAN who killed everyone who didn't agree with him, I would call him an asshole. We are talking about God the creator. He created you in the first place, and if you don't have faith in him then you go to Hell.

I don't recall saying God judges people on their morals. You could have bad morals, but if you ask forgiveness of your sins you will be saved. You could go to heaven if you were a merciless killer but then turned to god, were sorry for your sins, and stayed true to god. If you are a good person and do what is right, but don't believe in God, then yes you will go to Hell because you have no faith in God.

Yes, that's exactly how it is. If you're a total fucking douchebag your whole life, but you're a Christian, you go to heaven. But, if you are the greatest person ever, and you gave your life to save a bus load of children, you'd go to hell because you're an Atheist.

If that's really what God is supposed to be, no wonder people don't believe in him. I can't put my faith in somebody who is going to doom most of humanity, even if that doesn't include me.

If there is a God up there, I'll be going to heaven, even though I'm an Atheist, because I've lead a good life. God wouldn't punish me for having independent thought.

Also, one question for you. Since me and my wife are the creators of my children (half hers, half mine), am we allowed to kill them if they don't agree with us?

 

[ChurchedAtheist]

Also, one question for you. Since me and my wife are the creators of my children (half hers, half mine), am we allowed to kill them if they don't agree with us?

God created the kids, not you. he allowed you to get your wife pregnant, and put the soul in the child.



^just figured i'd preemptively throw out the textbook christian answer.

 

[LocutusEstBorg]

God created the kids, not you. he allowed you to get your wife pregnant, and put the soul in the child.



^just figured i'd preemptively throw out the textbook christian answer.

According to me, cells are just like microchip circuits. Same logic gates etc but done with bioelectric material instead of silicon. Except the circuits are so complex and advanced.

Suppose you reassemble a copy of yourself on an atomic level, every atom for atom the same as you are now, a 1:1 atomic copy. Will the resulting being live, having all your memories and feelings for everyone you know? After all your memories are just the result of the current arrangement of atoms in your brain.

A clone can never be the same as you because a clone will not have memories, and its development will be influenced by external factors. But an atomic reassembly will be a copy of you as you are now, I believe. Will it have a soul?

The body is just an electrical system as far as I'm concerned, and it can be duplicated when technology advances to that level.

 

[Access_Denied]

God created the kids, not you. he allowed you to get your wife pregnant, and put the soul in the child.



^just figured i'd preemptively throw out the textbook christian answer.

Nothing against you personally, but this is more against the 'Christian answer'.

Science has never found the interference of God in any part of making a baby. WE made the baby, not God. WE were the ones that had sex to create it, not God. Just because God made me, and I made my kids, doesn't mean God made my kids.

Also, I agree with Torch. The body is just a collection of molecules and electrical waves. The soul is an idea, not an object.

 

[ChurchedAtheist]

Nothing against you personally, but this is more against the 'Christian answer'.

but it is the answer most christians use in my experience. i just said it was the textbook answer, i didn't say it was good.

 

[Nero]

When reading the Bible or the Quran or any sort of religious scripture, it goes without saying that you should apply your common sense as well. There is a lot of bullshit that is simply impractical in today's society which you should be intelligent enough to filter out.

Don't forget that it was still written by humans who might have been fanatics and what not. The dude who wrote the book of revelations was stoned on weed when he wrote it/though of what to write.

It doesn't need to say you have to apply your common sense. Your common sense should already be there. What bullshit are you talking about? Point it out.

And the "dude" who writes the books is from the word of god. So your telling me that the person who wrote the four Vedas was stoned on weed? How could you say this about your own religion?

I also don't get why in the Bible out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul etc but not a single one named after Mary or her son.

In the Quran there is a whole chapter on Mary "Sura Maryam" "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honour of Mary the mother of Jesus christ (pbuh). Again, such an honour is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible.

 

[Tsunaii]

Also, I agree with Torch. The body is just a collection of molecules and electrical waves. The soul is an idea, not an object.

generally the term "soul" or "spirit" is a way of giving character to those electrical waves. hence why they use electronic equipment to find "ghosts", like de-tuned radios and tvs.
once again using my old bias, for some of us, it is really whether we want to believe it or not. similarly those who have gods, have at some point witnessed or are hoping to witness evidential support behind what they sense.
it is possible to not sense something unless you are trying to sense it. you wont see what you are not looking to see. you can only see somethings if you are looking for them, and in order to look for it you gotta believe it is there.

you hear there is a MacDonald's in town, you don't believe it, you don't go finding it, tough luck you go hungry.
should you chose to go in search of it, you may find it, you may not, if you do you get your food, if you don't you put your mind to rest and look elsewhere, or move on and say, there is no MacDonald's. lets find Burger King/go to the Burger King down the other end of town.

 

[matt]

Yes, that's exactly how it is. If you're a total fucking douchebag your whole life, but you're a Christian, you go to heaven. But, if you are the greatest person ever, and you gave your life to save a bus load of children, you'd go to hell because you're an Atheist.

If that's really what God is supposed to be, no wonder people don't believe in him. I can't put my faith in somebody who is going to doom most of humanity, even if that doesn't include me.

If there is a God up there, I'll be going to heaven, even though I'm an Atheist, because I've lead a good life. God wouldn't punish me for having independent thought.

Also, one question for you. Since me and my wife are the creators of my children (half hers, half mine), am we allowed to kill them if they don't agree with us?

Yes, if there is a person that does evil all their life, but then turns to God, asks for forgiveness, and renounces their old ways, then they will go to Heaven.

Yes, if you were the greatest person ever, but never believed in God, then you would still go to hell. How can you gain admittance into the Kingdom of God if you never believed in him in the first place? Good actions can't justify not having faith in God when you die.

God created Humanity, therefore he created all of us.

 

[Access_Denied]

Yes, if there is a person that does evil all their life, but then turns to God, asks for forgiveness, and renounces their old ways, then they will go to Heaven.

Yes, if you were the greatest person ever, but never believed in God, then you would still go to hell. How can you gain admittance into the Kingdom of God if you never believed in him in the first place? Good actions can't justify not having faith in God when you die.

God created Humanity, therefore he created all of us.

Exactly, do you see how screwed up that system of beliefs is? Let's just say, that God actually did create us all. He gave us all characteristics and abilities. Among these, is compassion. He gave all humans compassion for one another. I have compassion for other humans. So, tell me, how am I supposed to believe in a God that is going to make most of humanity suffer forever for something that is his fault? Especially when I have compassion for all the humans he's sending to hell?

Yeah, see, you're not making any sense. You keep going on and on about how God created humanity. Well, that means that he also created our thought processes. Which means that before he even created us, he doomed most of us to eternal damnation.

This view of God makes him look like one sadistic son of a bitch.

Really, go actually read the Bible. The bible says that all paths lead to the same fate. That means that all religions lead to heaven, even non-Christian ones. Because God realizes that not EVERYBODY thinks the same, and just because people have independent thought, doesn't mean that they're bad people.

So, I know you were hell bent on keeping Atheists out of heaven, but it's not happening.

 

[Teowulf]

Exactly, do you see how screwed up that system of beliefs is? Let's just say, that God actually did create us all. He gave us all characteristics and abilities. Among these, is compassion. He gave all humans compassion for one another. I have compassion for other humans. So, tell me, how am I supposed to believe in a God that is going to make most of humanity suffer forever for something that is his fault? Especially when I have compassion for all the humans he's sending to hell?

Yeah, see, you're not making any sense. You keep going on and on about how God created humanity. Well, that means that he also created our thought processes. Which means that before he even created us, he doomed most of us to eternal damnation.

Actually, according to the bible, I'm pretty sure that's an oxymoron.

Matthew 7: 15-20
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

As I interpret this, people who embrace religion cannot do bad, and those who don't cannot do good.

And don't forget that all those who do good embrace religion:

John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

I'm also pretty sure that God did not intend for everyone to embrace Christianity, or for all those who do to go to heaven....

Matthew 7: 13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.