Piracy

[wololo]

In both cases they are going against the TOS/TOU (AKA: contract) they agreed to, and which is again, illegal.

Wrong, it's not necessarily illegal.
I think I said it earlier, but it depends on the country.
In France, reverse engineering stuff you own on the PSP only voids the warranty.

A contract is not above the law, but then it depends on the law in your country.

 

[Slasher]

@ m1ndtr1p

I meant "illegally", not "legally". Typo.

I won't even touch your analogy. It might make sense to you, but it doesn't apply here.
Also, whether Sony likes us touching our PSP's unlawfully or not is more or less irrelevant. Who cares about what Sony thinks. We're disputing your claim that hackers = piracy, we aren't discussing Sony's stance.

What I think you need to realize is that hackers (taking Davee for example) don't hack the PSP for the purpose of allowing copyrighted illegal content to be pirated and played on the machine. They hack it to allow legit homebrew games and applications to be ran. Simple as that really.

Other developers may decide to take advantage of the unsigned code environment and decide to create an ISO/Emulator loader and release it, but that is an entirely separate situation unrelated to what the hacker believes in. The hacker did not condone or encourage that to happen when he/she allowed unsigned code to be ran.

The hacker I suppose indirectly allows the execution of emulators/ISO loaders, but they are in no way the ones to directly blame for piracy. Calling hackers hypocrits for not supporting piracy is ludicrous.

 

[Telpeurion]

The thing about this is that it's not the actual 1s and 0s that people are claiming are theirs- it's the sequence. If you can somehow come up with an arbitrary combination of numbers, and replicate the exact item (let's say song), without seeing that song, then it is not piracy. However, by copying the song, you are copying the same amount of work that someone else did, without doing any work yourself. Taking an item and placing it into a medium you own cannot make it yours, because you did not do the work.

Hopefully I didn't completely misinterpret your point.

I am well aware of the actual legal status of intellectual property, I am saying I don't see it as legitimate whatsoever. As for owning sequences, if today's intellectual property laws were around in the stone age, we might still be today paying royalties to first man to tell Jumping Mouse. And don't say ideas and "patterns on your hard drive" are any different than something in your head. As far as we know, your mind is no different than a hard drive. When I go to the movie theater I not only take the movie with me when I go home, MY MIND ALTERS IT! ZOMG, EVEN WORSE!

The only argument that you can give is the whole "Intellectual property gives incentives to invent". Sure, it gives lots of reasons to invent, but not to innovate. Look at the patent history of the Steam Engine as a good example of how technological progress was given a grinding halt. Here's a good read:

http://mises.org/story/3280

 

[TRFyuki]

Simply put, both are equally illegal... Both are equally wrong in Sony's eyes who, at the end of it all, decides what is or isn't allowed on THEIR console. So Davee's (and many others, not singling him out) stance on pirates is hypocritical, since both hacking and pirating are bad for business (again, in Sony's eyes). If they felt so strongly about doing the "right" thing, any and all hacking of the PSP would stop and the HEN/CFW would never be released.

Both are not equally wrong in Sony's eyes... both are not bad for business. Piracy, and piracy only, is bad for business. Sony wouldn't be so aggresively closing exploits on PSP firmware if it didn't cut into profits. People mod cellphones like crazy; I'm into the Motorola modding scene and hacking phones, copying other people's phonebook contacts, and even phone-cloaning are very illegal but phone-companies barely care about it because it doesn't cut into profits. Wait until someone figures out how what SEEM edits or cert-files to alter on a motorola phone to put it in debug/service-mode on AT&T's network and people start calling for free all over the place... *THEN* Motorola and/or cellphone-carriers will have a real issue.

Then there's the whole import scene; games that clearly say "Only meant to be used in Japan" but nobody seriously enforces it - sans a very week region-lockout easily circumvented. They reason is because it doesn't really cut into profits that much; it still got paid for. All it does is maybe skew some reporting numbers for sales-per-region. When someone figure out some kind of loophole in shipping laws that says any game you order from Japan is free,....then watch the import scene get crushed in a few hours.

Sony doesn't care about people running their homebrew... until they see it as a problem for profits(pirating). If there was some way Sony could be assured that homebrew would not lead to piracy. They would definitely not be so aggressive with closing exploits within 48 hours like they've been doing.

Make no mistake, Sony isn't targetting homebrew... they're targetting pirates. Homebrew just gets hit in the crossfire all the time.

 

[WildArmsV]

Well personally, i dont live in USA, and the hacking stuff is usefull since when i could buy a game in the USA for 60$, (that is actually the only way i buy original games using amazon and a friend to bring them to my country) the original games here cost like twice the games there? or almost twice, a ps3 game here is around like 100-120 dollars, ( we dont use dollars but that is about the change to my currency), i know there is shipping expenses and etc, but that is just too plain expensive for people here, so that leads to piracy, here i can go to a mall and find a game shop that sells original games AND pirated games xD, really cheap, and they actually put the necessary chip for consoles to play pirated games. There is no authority to prevent this here.

Is really good, since i can play games and dont have to pay badass prices. BUT i swear that if i had the chance to live in US, and could buy games to a OK price i would gladly buy games, because i know piracy destroys the game industry, and that is something i dont want to happen, i wish games could prospere, and become a great economic and respectable industry. I have lots original games as well as pirated. As long as at least i dont use ONLY pirate games i think i am at least not making too much damage to the industry.
And what i like of the psp is the whole variety it can emulate, and since they are old games i would normally replay games i already bought, and i would be happy when an iso loader comes to play wild arms 2 (wich isnt availiable to buy from playstation network, just wild arms 1 T_T that i already have original) i mean what could be better than a portable psX!? omgawd i feel chills when i think about it

 

[Telpeurion]

Both are not equally wrong in Sony's eyes... both are not bad for business. Piracy, and piracy only, is bad for business. Sony wouldn't be so aggresively closing exploits on PSP firmware if it didn't cut into profits. People mod cellphones like crazy; I'm into the Motorola modding scene and hacking phones, copying other people's phonebook contacts, and even phone-cloaning are very illegal but phone-companies barely care about it because it doesn't cut into profits. Wait until someone figures out how what SEEM edits or cert-files to alter on a motorola phone to put it in debug/service-mode or something and people start calling for free all over the place... *THEN* Motorola and/or cellphone-carriers will have a real issue.

Then there's the whole import scene; games that clearly say "Only meant to be used in Japan" but nobody seriously enforces it - sans a very week region-lockout easily circumvented. They reason is because it doesn't really cut into profits that much; it still got paid for. When someone figure out some kind of loophole in shipping laws that says any game you order from Japan is free,....then watch the import scene get crushed in a few weeks.

Sony doesn't care about people running their homebrew... until they see it as a problem for profits(pirating). If there was some way Sony could be assured that homebrew would not lead to piracy. They would definitely not be so aggressive with closing exploits within 48 hours like they've been doing.

What do you mean? Sony isn't losing profits, game publishers are. Sony's hardware sales benefit. Face it, these "Horse and buggy" operators need a new business model when faced with an automobile. Yet instead of trying to peacefully compete, they use force (the government). As I said in a previous post, there are plenty of game companies making a profit despite piracy, and that is through offering a service through their high quality servers. If anything, 'pirates' have been providing free distribution and advertising for the full products. If your product is singleplayer only? Oh well.

 

[Slasher]

What do you mean? Sony isn't losing profits, game publishers are. Sony's hardware sales benefit. Face it, these "Horse and buggy" operators need a new business model when faced with an automobile. Yet instead of trying to peacefully compete, they use force (the government). As I said in a previous post, there are plenty of game companies making a profit despite piracy, and that is through offering a service through their high quality servers. If anything, 'pirates' have been providing free distribution and advertising for the full products. If your product is singleplayer only? Oh well.

Game publishers are often making significantly less due to pirating though - they don't always make a profit. Hence, Sony does lose profit if they have less games to stand behind their system if the game publishers are jumping ship. Less games then lead to less hardware sales. Or in the case that it's a Sony studios game, then yes Sony is then directly losing money. Sony loses money due to pirating either way.

 

[WildArmsV]

Game publishers are making significantly less due to pirating though - they don't always make a profit. Hence, Sony does lose profit if they have less games to stand behind their system if the game publishers are jumping ship. Less games then lead to less hardware sales. Or in the case that it's a Sony studios game, then yes Sony is then directly losing money. Sony loses money due to pirating either way.

So you could say piracy is a double edged sword, sometimes piracy gets the system sales up, games down, system up, games down, patch piracy, system down, games up- maybe not enough because of money or already have system hacked, or whatever- thats a never ending cycle

 

[Telpeurion]

The problem with that comes copyright, you may "own" the physical item (Media, CD, DVD etc...), but the content of the media is still owned by the artist/publisher/author etc... By using the media, you agree to a contract that states you will not copy, distribute or modify it in any way and that owning a modified version or a direct copy of said content is illegal and punishable by law...

This is why they have terms of service and terms of use on everything, it's a contract that you agree to and "sign" every time you buy any type of media which contains any type of content...

Copyrights fall under intellectual property, I am against it. So even if it is 'illegal' I will carry on as if it were nonexistent. The burden of proof is on you as to why there needs to be legal protection... Not that there is, but why there SHOULD be; and I will give my argument as to why it should not.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM EST ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM EST ----------

Game publishers are making significantly less due to pirating though - they don't always make a profit. Hence, Sony does lose profit if they have less games to stand behind their system if the game publishers are jumping ship. Less games then lead to less hardware sales. Or in the case that it's a Sony studios game, then yes Sony is then directly losing money. Sony loses money due to pirating either way.

You act as if Sony MUST have money, as if the fate of the world hinges on it. The propaganda says it will be the end of gaming, it won't. There are plenty of able companies that ARE making a profit even because of piracy. A good business model is to make people WANT to buy the "premium" version of the games rather than the free distributed one. Pray tell you are not one of those evil people who breaks copyrights to play LAN games with your family or friends!

 

[TRFyuki]

So you could say piracy is a double edged sword, sometimes piracy gets the system sales up, games down, system up, games down, patch piracy, system down, games up- maybe not enough because of money or already have system hacked, or whatever- thats a never ending cycle

Oh you're absouletely right there - especially for music. I can totally see both sides of the argument on piracy. piracy, for better or worse, will always be around. We can debate that for years. But, in Sony's eyes piracy=loss-profit, and that's what they're targetting. Whether or not that's actually true... who knows. But I have a feeling, for the PSP it's not like the music-industry. I kinda think piracy hurts Sony more than helps. For the music-industry, I think it leans a *little* more to helping artists than hurting.

 

[WildArmsV]

Well i dont know if any of you guys knows Atlus company, well they are a gamer localizer (im talking of Atlus USA, that brings games from japan and translate them) they publish mostly rpgs <3, and sometimes really rare games<33, but well i could say they made, or have a great strategy against the hacking, wich is, include stuff with the games they are selling, they always insert a soundtrack or an image album, or shirts or whatever about the game that makes you actually want to buy the original game instead of just having a pirated copy
I think that strategy should be implemented, may be, IMO, the cure for most of the pirated games of the world, or at least a good part of it

 

[m1ndtr1p]

@ m1ndtr1p

I meant "illegally", not "legally". Typo.

I won't even touch your analogy. It might make sense to you, but it doesn't apply here.
Also, whether Sony likes us touching our PSP's unlawfully or not is more or less irrelevant. Who cares about what Sony thinks. We're disputing your claim that hackers = piracy, we aren't discussing Sony's stance.

What I think you need to realize is that hackers (taking Davee for example) don't hack the PSP for the purpose of allowing copyrighted illegal content to be pirated and played on the machine. They hack it to allow legit homebrew games and applications to be ran. Simple as that really.

Other developers may decide to take advantage of the unsigned code environment and decide to create an ISO/Emulator loader and release it, but that is an entirely separate situation unrelated to what the hacker believes in. The hacker did not condone or encourage that to happen when he/she allowed unsigned code to be ran.

The hacker I suppose indirectly allows the execution of emulators/ISO loaders, but they are in no way the ones to blame for piracy. Calling them hypocrits is ludicrous.

My analogy makes much more sense than the whole gunsmith as the hacker analogy stated earlier... The gunsmiths make the guns, hackers don't make the PSP... Hackers MODIFY the software in the PSP, MAKE the software necessary to run homebrew/ISO/CSO/Emulators and share that information and software with users.

As far as the Sony comment goes, its VERY relevant, its THEIR console, THEIR terms you agree to, THEIR software... THEY decide whether you can or cannot modify it. To say that Sony is irrelevant is hilarious, if it wasn't for Sony's firmware updates and patches to STOP people from running unsigned code on their PSP, we'd still be running wide open firmwares like 1.00 and 1.50 and wouldn't need HENs or CFW to run homebrew.

I think you read way too much in my comment, what I said was that hackers are JUST AS BAD as pirates (which you can read in my very first post in the tiff thread). Their actions have the same results, going against the TOU/contract they agreed to by modifying Sony's software/firmware, which is illegal.

Also, I didn't mean hypocrites as an insult, but as the true meaning of the word, because it's exactly the case... We're all hypocrites at some point, no one can deny that.

Why do people dislike pirates?

#1 reason: It's illegal, if it wasn't, EVERYONE would be pirating... It's just like modifying Sony's software/firmware to run unsigned code on the PSP, it's illegal. So how is that NOT hypocritical?

 

[TRFyuki]

Well i dont know if any of you guys knows Atlus company, well they are a gamer localizer (im talking of Atlus USA, that brings games from japan and translate them) they publish mostly rpgs <3, and sometimes really rare games<33, but well i could say they made, or have a great strategy against the hacking, wich is, include stuff with the games they are selling, they always insert a soundtrack or an image album, or shirts or whatever about the game that makes you actually want to buy the original game instead of just having a pirated copy
I think that strategy should be implemented, may be, IMO, the cure for most of the pirated games of the world, or at least a good part of it

I personally am an example of that. I buy all my Japanese music because I like the casing, booklets 'n stuff.

 

[Telpeurion]

Well i dont know if any of you guys knows Atlus company, well they are a gamer localizer (im talking of Atlus USA, that brings games from japan and translate them) they publish mostly rpgs <3, and sometimes really rare games<33, but well i could say they made, or have a great strategy against the hacking, wich is, include stuff with the games they are selling, they always insert a soundtrack or an image album, or shirts or whatever about the game that makes you actually want to buy the original game instead of just having a pirated copy
I think that strategy should be implemented, may be, IMO, the cure for most of the pirated games of the world, or at least a good part of it

Exactly, you PAY for the material. Just like the book argument, you pay for the ink and bindings, not the knowledge.

---------- Post added at 08:04 PM EST ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM EST ----------

Oh you're absouletely right there - especially for music. I can totally see both sides of the argument on piracy. piracy, for better or worse, will always be around. We can debate that for years. But, in Sony's eyes piracy=loss-profit, and that's what they're targetting. Whether or not that's actually true... who knows. But I have a feeling, for the PSP it's not like the music-industry. I kinda think piracy hurts Sony more than helps. For the music-industry, I think it leans a *little* more to helping artists than hurting.

Its hilarious how the term Pirate was invented in this case to be negative, but now it is cool to be a "Pirate", how their own word gets used against the Government-supported patsies.

 

[TRFyuki]

Why do people dislike pirates?

#1 reason: It's illegal, if it wasn't, EVERYONE would be pirating... It's just like modifying Sony's software/firmware to run unsigned code on the PSP, it's illegal. So how is that NOT hypocritical?

No... not because it's illegal... it's because they see it as loss-profits. There are plenty of things that are illegal and nobody cares about. It's illegal in kentucky to have an ice-cream cone in your backpocket... but that won't hurt the profits of the company that made the jeans you're wearing, so they don't care and the law might as well not exist.

 

[Telpeurion]

No... not because it's illegal... it's because they see it as loss-profits. There are plenty of things that are illegal and nobody cares about. It's illegal in california to have an ice-cream cone in your backpocket... but that won't hurt the profits of the company that made the jeans you're wearing, so they don't care and the law might as well not exist.

So why have laws that benefit some and hurt others? I thought we had equality before the law! *sarcasm* :laugh:

 

[TRFyuki]

Oh... and just because a company puts something in their TOS, doesn't even mean it's enforcable in the court of law. There have been lots of things put into TOS that if a customer gets really angry and takes the company to court, the company fails to proove their TOS is enforcable.

Ya know what? I bet if someone took SONY to court over the PSP-modding thing, SONY would lose... unless they can confuse the judge to believe all modding = piracy.

 

[Slasher]

My analogy makes much more sense than the whole gunsmith as the hacker analogy stated earlier... The gunsmiths make the guns, hackers don't make the PSP... Hackers MODIFY the software in the PSP, MAKE the software necessary to run homebrew/ISO/CSO/Emulators and share that information and software with users.

We're talking metaphorically, not literally.

As far as the Sony comment goes, its VERY relevant, its THEIR console, THEIR terms you agree to, THEIR software... THEY decide whether you can or cannot modify it. To say that Sony is irrelevant is hilarious, if it wasn't for Sony's firmware updates and patches to STOP people from running unsigned code on their PSP, we'd still be running wide open firmwares like 1.00 and 1.50 and wouldn't need HENs or CFW to run homebrew.

That's nice but I still fail to see why Sony's actions have anything to do with what we are SPECIFICALLY talking about - and that is 'hackers are just as bad as pirates'.

To Sony they might be, but in reality, by analyzing this particular situation that is going on here in the PSP scene, hackers are not 'just as bad as pirates'.

Why did you even mention this unrelated information?

I think you read way too much in my comment, what I said was that hackers are JUST AS BAD as pirates (which you can read in my very first post in the tiff thread). Their actions have the same results, going against the TOU/contract they agreed to by modifying Sony's software/firmware, which is illegal.

Also, I didn't mean hypocrites as an insult, but as the true meaning of the word, because it's exactly the case... We're all hypocrites at some point, no one can deny that.

Why do people dislike pirates?

#1 reason: It's illegal, if it wasn't, EVERYONE would be pirating... It's just like modifying Sony's software/firmware to run unsigned code on the PSP, it's illegal. So how is that NOT hypocritical?

Hackers are just as bad as pirates just because they both break a TOU contract.
Uhm, no. Pirates obviously do more harm in addition to this one little action. Grouping them both together based on this one common attribute is just plain ignorant. The consequences of a pirates actions are obviously much more different and harmful than a hacker simply breaking a TOU agreement by allowing unsigned code to be ran.

There's no use disputing this with you if you cannot realize this.

Why do people dislike pirates?
Not because it's illegal (keep in mind some countries allow it), but because much like TRFyuki said, it's a loss of profits for the company. If a company loses a significant amount of profit, then obviously there will come a time when they cut their losses and drop the product. If piracy is rampant, then the product will eventually be discontinued and the consumer will miss out. Everybody loses once the product is gone, not just the game companies.

 

[WildArmsV]

How about we look it from a different point of view, it must really feel bad if you were the creator of something and see it copied, all your effort, i know if u were a game programmer u wouldnt mind lots of ppl playing ur game but, you know, they need to eat, and for that they need money, and for that they need to sell games xD, i think maybe we should talk less about companies like Sony, and talk more individuality. Maybe the developers or the team creator dont want their creation being hacked like that. Or maybe they dont mind it copied/hacked as long as they have a good income, but if they do that for almost nothing, it really must be bad

 

[wololo]

How about we look it from a different point of view, it must really feel bad if you were the creator of something and see it copied, all your effort, i know if u were a game programmer u wouldnt mind lots of ppl playing ur game but, you know, they need to eat, and for that they need money, and for that they need to sell games xD, i think maybe we should talk less about companies like Sony, and talk more individuality. Maybe the developers or the team creator dont want their creation being hacked like that. Or maybe they dont mind it copied/hacked as long as they have a good income, but if they do that for almost nothing, it really must be bad

Which is why Pirates and hackers are not the same. What you describe is what pirates do: copying without adding anything new. So you should replace "hacked" with "pirated" in your sentence.

Hackers tend to unlock the system, improve it.


If it were music, I would see the hacker as a talented DJ, able to create new music from samples of another musician, while pirates would be the people who simply rip/download mp3s.

I don't see why game developers would think differently. I don't work in the gaming industry, but I can tell you developers in any company make a clear difference between clever hackers and stupid pirates. I don't work for Sony, but I could bet with you that there are a few people over there who are impressed with what hackers have accomplished with the PSP. As a professional programmer I'm always impressed when someone use my work in a twisted way to make the program do way more than it was initially supposed to do.

Someone who codes an ISO loader clearly knows what this will lead to. But it's not because a few guys created ISO Loaders that all hackers support this.